Questions and Observations

[Malevolence]

ORIGINAL: Culthrasa

Currently watching the Turtuga/Dastactic co-op, and both have trouble with the speed of the AI taking territory. Combined with the stuff said in this thread it seems like the AI is just sooooo much faster and can keep up the pace indefinitely. With the current bonuses the AI has, would it be more balanced if the AI starts with only foot troops and not motorized? (in the let's play i'm not sure they have motorized, but it would explain their speed and being able to envelop their positions).

This is an artifact of the map size. The impact of the relative mobility of the units is more pronounced because the map size is small.

Given static mobility values, the impact is less on larger maps.

On larger maps, the player is able to reach the tipping point where their faction can survive and grow.

That playthrough is "fighting in a basement".

[KingHalford]

I'm watching Das and Tortuga's game too, it's absolutely awesome so far. Really goes to show just how the game can change dramatically dependent upon the planet you're playing on. I love that kind of pressure (although not sure those two might agree lol!)

[FMBluecher]

I have no issue with the AI's having motorized units at the start, but I wonder if it might make more sense to let the AI ramp up to unlimited free roads? Maybe on turn 1 it gets zero free roads, on turn 2 it gets one hex of free road, on turn 3 it gets 2, and so on until turn 15-20 when the truly unlimited free roads kick in? I just watched Das's latest MP video and the disparity between his complete inability to build even one road without crippling his ability to develop his city and the AI's being able to build a road from practically the southern part of the map all the way up to the top and along the northern map edge did seem a bit much.

[DasTactic]

I think Vic is going to look at the free road building of the AI. I saw it written somewhere - probably in the beta forum. I don't think the AI has any extra troops over what we have at the start. I'm assuming the motorised troops would just be the initial militia groups but I could be wrong about that.

[devoncop]

I don't understand the queries about the AI resources...firstly the game is being played "hard AI" to increase the challenge. Several You Tubers including Das have beaten normal AI fairly comfortably so giving the AI certain non military advantages like subsidised roads would seem logical on harder settings.

Also bear in mind both Das and Tortuga gave themselves a free regular infantry brigade at the set up so minor factions would have been disadvantaged by this in any case. The fact the AI has motorized units is normal in any case..the player also starts with motorised militia units, sometime including a few tanks if I remember rightly.

Do folk want a challenge or not ?

I would

[FMBluecher]

Sure--but as far as I know (and I might be wrong about this) the AI getting free roads is not something that scales with difficulty. (If it is/were, I would be much more OK with it!)

I'm very OK with the AI getting a leg up on various things on harder difficulties. But, as others have said in this thread before, the issue is immersion rather than true balance. It doesn't matter if the AI is playing by the same rules as long as it's not so glaringly obvious that it breaks the player's suspension of disbelief. That's why the unlimited roads don't matter in the late game--by then, the player can also probably build roads wherever they want.

But Das literally has the IP income to build at most one hex of road per turn. Obviously, if the AI can build 2 or 3 per turn for free, it's not a big deal. The player could pretend that the AI is just slightly better at optimizing its resources. But the AI is clearly building far, far more road hexes than Das could ever hope to at this stage of the game, and that's when it becomes an issue (albeit only a minor one).

I'm also sensitive to the limitations Vic is operating under. I get that he's a one-man show, and he doesn't have an AI specialist that can focus only on those issues. If the AI needs to have unlimited roads in order to present a challenge, then bring on the unlimited roads! As I said, while I do think it's an issue, it's only a minor one. But I still feel like if there's a way to get a challenge in a more immersive way, or to tweak the unlimited roads to make the effects more immersive, then it can't hurt to ask!

[balto]

Willgamer, you mention DC:Barbarossa's AI not playing by the rules. I have not played that beyond belief super great game in years, so I may regret asking - but what are the cheats/advantages of the AI in this?

Also, I may regret asking this too, does ATG also have cheats/advantages?

Thank you,

[balto]

FMBluecher, well said.

[Malevolence]

It's never an all or nothing prospect--free roads or not free roads. Not to repeat, but any design decision will have negative consequences that play out. It's the fun that ultimately matters.

If it was much earlier in development, I would have recommended some added smaller units, perhaps lethal and less so, that don't don't require lines of communication (supply lines) and/or don't actually change boundaries. Perhaps like Tuaregs. The minor factions already exist much like this now.

It's an interesting problem because units also leave a "trail of control-influence" when they move through an adversary’s territory. An enemy unit that moves across the territory impacts the touched hexes during the next turn, even though they are no longer located in those hexes. An enemy unit may have crossed a road two turns ago, but if not re-occupied the effect remains.

This might be a remnant of "world war 2" battlefield modelling. As I wrote elsewhere, these are really battlefields that focus on anti-access and area denial. Very limited “front lines”. Engagements are decisive.

However, there are many approaches and the current rules, in whole, work just as well IMO.

[KingHalford]

ORIGINAL: FMBluecher

Sure--but as far as I know (and I might be wrong about this) the AI getting free roads is not something that scales with difficulty. (If it is/were, I would be much more OK with it!)

I'm very OK with the AI getting a leg up on various things on harder difficulties. But, as others have said in this thread before, the issue is immersion rather than true balance. It doesn't matter if the AI is playing by the same rules as long as it's not so glaringly obvious that it breaks the player's suspension of disbelief. That's why the unlimited roads don't matter in the late game--by then, the player can also probably build roads wherever they want.

But Das literally has the IP income to build at most one hex of road per turn. Obviously, if the AI can build 2 or 3 per turn for free, it's not a big deal. The player could pretend that the AI is just slightly better at optimizing its resources. But the AI is clearly building far, far more road hexes than Das could ever hope to at this stage of the game, and that's when it becomes an issue (albeit only a minor one).

I'm also sensitive to the limitations Vic is operating under. I get that he's a one-man show, and he doesn't have an AI specialist that can focus only on those issues. If the AI needs to have unlimited roads in order to present a challenge, then bring on the unlimited roads! As I said, while I do think it's an issue, it's only a minor one. But I still feel like if there's a way to get a challenge in a more immersive way, or to tweak the unlimited roads to make the effects more immersive, then it can't hurt to ask!

I think this is a fair point and I think Das/Tortuga's game has highlighted an extreme example where the AI's advantage here really makes a big difference.

However, release is looming. If I was the developer here I might be reluctant to make such a big change to the main branch of the game this late on to cover for this limited set of cases. I think changing how the AI builds roads is going seriouesly affect how the AI plays and that's something that would require some serious testing.

[willgamer]

ORIGINAL: balto

Willgamer, you mention DC:Barbarossa's AI not playing by the rules. I have not played that beyond belief super great game in years, so I may regret asking - but what are the cheats/advantages of the AI in this?

Thank you,

I copied this from another post where the designer (Cameron) responded-

"Both sides get advantages if AI controlled to overcome the limitations of an AI's lack of strategic vision (AI's are very good at tactics but struggle with big picture strategy unless they have Deep Blue backing them up).

The Soviets main AI advantage is in incresaed activations compared to a human player. The Germans largely get a free pass on their fuel logistics.

They still have requirements to meet and, if cut-off, will fall over just as fast as a player controlled Panzer division would.

The logisitcal mechanics (FSB, trucks and trains) that a German player has to grapple with are, unfortunately, a step too far for an AI to deal with. The processing power required to make intelligent decisions in this area is way beyond what's available in a typical PC. It's a challenge for most human players to keep their Panzergruppes supplied with fuel, let alone for an AI make sense of multiple, interlinking, decision variables in the context of a rapidly advancing front.

Strength wise both sides get a boost for manpower and equipement if AI controlled but it's pretty minor. The German AI still has to rely on the same occasional reinforcement 'waves' as a human German player.


Cheers,
Cameron (designer)"

[FMBluecher]

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

However, release is looming. If I was the developer here I might be reluctant to make such a big change to the main branch of the game this late on to cover for this limited set of cases. I think changing how the AI builds roads is going seriouesly affect how the AI plays and that's something that would require some serious testing.

Great point! I'm not expecting things to change for release. But maybe--if and only if Vic thinks it's a good use of his time--we might see this in a patch at some point! And if not, the game still looks great as is, and I think we'll all still have a lot of fun with it.

[Saros]

Vic has confirmed on the beta forums that he isn't particularly happy with the 'free roads for ai' and the edge cases caused by it like it rebuilding roads to a cut off army every turn. Hasn't said exactly how he will address it though.

[devoncop]

This game has fired my imagination like no other recent release and as someone who loves to roleplay my strategy games rather than min/maxing I am already making lists of town and faction names and unit designations for example and therefore have a question....

I envisage creating in time an elite Brigade of Presidential Guard made up of elite and veteran troops only and I am aware there is a filtering the recruitment tab to restrict recruits just to this category . My question is what is the source of such troops ? Are players dependent upon disbanding experienced units at some point or can such troops be trained recruited at will by just using the filter....presumably slower and at greater expense to reflect longer training ?

Thanks in advance for any info...

Ian

[Culthrasa]

@devoncop.. from what i've seen you'd have to restrict the units in the field to "regular" and your elite unit set to well "elite" the subunits should then move about (within the same class obviously). But I like the idea great for immersion indeed!


@saros Good to know! All the faith that Vic will find a solution he's happy with


Edit:

Something popped into my mind, so a suggestion: how about the AI can't build a (free) road within say 4 hexes of other units?
This prevents the behavior observed by Palora and would prevent the shenanigans the AI did in the co-op series of Das/tortuga by building a road up north through the gap there, and thereby limiting it's expansion over and above Das in that instance... And 4 hexes is still good supply most of the time and it seems to be the "danger" mechanic too, so not totally without immersion...

[devoncop]

ORIGINAL: Culthrasa

@devoncop.. from what i've seen you'd have to restrict the units in the field to "regular" and your elite unit set to well "elite" the subunits should then move about (within the same class obviously). But I like the idea great for immersion indeed!

Yes that would seem logical.

In fact my first faction will be a load of religious nutcases led by a crazed Patriarch so the Guard unit will be the Patrirch Guard rather than Presidential Guard but the point remains[:)]

[balto]

Willgamer, thank you for the DC:Barbarossa info on AI. To me, those are not gamebreaking advantages. Now if the AI did NOT suffer from being Out of Supply, that would be game-breaking. Shadow Empires "free roads'.., man, that is sort of game breaking, but still getting it and it will still be great.

[Vic]

If I dont improve the AI experience before release I'll do it after.

This game will stay on my radar for a long time.

And i'll continue improving it based on player feedback.

I will not of course grant all requests, but i share the sentiment about the roads.