Event Effects

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

I can be also a smart ass. Usenet has taught me so and flamer if required.

WUT?? Just making historical info point. lmfao.

Many have no idea of what happened with the Ottoman Empire and how close Turkey came to being carved up or why they wouldn't join the Axis or that they did in fact join the Allies before the end of the war so they could take part in the early UN. I don't care why someone did something in a scenario. Just some historical background re Turkey and their historical whys and why nots.

Finland is another minor that was politically motivated to limit what they did on the East Front. After October their offensives stopped for political reasons and historically would have not gone any farther than they historically did regardless of what Germany did.

I like to see people looking at things and then reading up on what happened in respect to what a scenario shows. Has zero to do with you other than the quote to show why I put in the historical info.

Continuation War:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuat ... %20Karelia.

It was far more likely that Spain would have entered on the Axis side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II

[MonkeysBrain2]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

I can be also a smart ass. Usenet has taught me so and flamer if required.

WUT?? Just making historical info point. lmfao.

Many have no idea of what happened with the Ottoman Empire and how close Turkey came to being carved up or why they wouldn't join the Axis or that they did in fact join the Allies before the end of the war so they could take part in the early UN. I don't care why someone did something in a scenario. Just some historical background re Turkey and their historical whys and why nots.

Finland is another minor that was politically motivated to limit what they did on the East Front. After October their offensives stopped for political reasons and historically would have not gone any farther than they historically did regardless of what Germany did.

I like to see people looking at things and then reading up on what happened in respect to what a scenario shows. Has zero to do with you other than the quote to show why I put in the historical info.

Continuation War:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuat ... %20Karelia.

It was far more likely that Spain would have entered on the Axis side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II

Turkey, yes sided with Allies in FEBRUARY 1945. Ok, they stopped shipping ore in 1944. But date of entering the war is interesting FEBRUARY 1945. when Germany was on it's knees and couldn't even send few squadrons of bombers to bomb Istanbul like they did with Bucharest when Romania betrayed them

OK, I have maybe overreacted but as I said the original poster was asking about events not about HISTORICAL AUTHENTICITY of TOAW scenarios.

Care to explain to all of us what TOAW scenario is 100% historically true? LOL

Let me say to you that when scenario designer first start to design scenario in TOAW, history goes down the drain. We have illusion of history in TOAW, our imagination make it look better than it is.

First when they pour number of trucks into divisions or any other formation it is not 100% true because if they give each division number of trucks that they really had some division could travel around GLOBE in TOAW.

Bring John Erricson and Ziemke and Glantz into discussion I don't mind. But that was not original topic here. No need to hijack the thread or it is? Then please continue with history lesson and use of that in TOAW. And your original map is irrelevant. Because that didn't happened to Turkey. They had ATATURK, remember? I have high opinion and respect ATATURK, more than your Churchill. LOL
But that's not the point. I am not here to defend Daniel MCBride of attacks from TOAW Design Group or anyone else who is jealous on his work. He have made some spectacular TOAW scenarios and some little flaws doesn't make it any worse.


Mario

[MonkeysBrain2]

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

I can be also a smart ass. Usenet has taught me so and flamer if required.

WUT?? Just making historical info point. lmfao.

Many have no idea of what happened with the Ottoman Empire and how close Turkey came to being carved up or why they wouldn't join the Axis or that they did in fact join the Allies before the end of the war so they could take part in the early UN. I don't care why someone did something in a scenario. Just some historical background re Turkey and their historical whys and why nots.

Finland is another minor that was politically motivated to limit what they did on the East Front. After October their offensives stopped for political reasons and historically would have not gone any farther than they historically did regardless of what Germany did.

I like to see people looking at things and then reading up on what happened in respect to what a scenario shows. Has zero to do with you other than the quote to show why I put in the historical info.

Continuation War:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuat ... %20Karelia.

It was far more likely that Spain would have entered on the Axis side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II

Turkey, yes sided with Allies in FEBRUARY 1945. Ok, they stopped shipping ore in 1944. But date of entering the war is interesting FEBRUARY 1945. when Germany was on it's knees and couldn't even send few squadrons of bombers to bomb Istanbul like they did with Bucharest when Romania betrayed them

OK, I have maybe overreacted but as I said the original poster was asking about events not about HISTORICAL AUTHENTICITY of TOAW scenarios.

Care to explain to all of us what TOAW scenario is 100% historically true? LOL

Let me say to you that when scenario designer first start to design scenario in TOAW, history goes down the drain. We have illusion of history in TOAW, our imagination make it look better than it is.

First when they pour number of trucks into divisions or any other formation it is not 100% true because if they give each division number of trucks that they really had some division could travel around GLOBE in TOAW.

Bring John Erricson and Ziemke and Glantz into discussion I don't mind. But that was not original topic here. No need to hijack the thread or it is? Then please continue with history lesson and use of that in TOAW. And your original map is irrelevant. Because that didn't happened to Turkey. They had ATATURK, remember? I have high opinion and respect ATATURK, more than your Churchill. LOL
But that's not the point. I am not here to defend Daniel MCBride of attacks from TOAW Design Group or anyone else who is jealous on his work. He have made some spectacular TOAW scenarios and some little flaws doesn't make it any worse.



Mario

[MonkeysBrain2]

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

I can be also a smart ass. Usenet has taught me so and flamer if required.

WUT?? Just making historical info point. lmfao.

Many have no idea of what happened with the Ottoman Empire and how close Turkey came to being carved up or why they wouldn't join the Axis or that they did in fact join the Allies before the end of the war so they could take part in the early UN. I don't care why someone did something in a scenario. Just some historical background re Turkey and their historical whys and why nots.

Finland is another minor that was politically motivated to limit what they did on the East Front. After October their offensives stopped for political reasons and historically would have not gone any farther than they historically did regardless of what Germany did.

I like to see people looking at things and then reading up on what happened in respect to what a scenario shows. Has zero to do with you other than the quote to show why I put in the historical info.

Continuation War:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuat ... %20Karelia.

It was far more likely that Spain would have entered on the Axis side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II

Turkey, yes sided with Allies in FEBRUARY 1945. Ok, they stopped shipping ore in 1944. But date of entering the war is interesting FEBRUARY 1945. when Germany was on it's knees and couldn't even send few squadrons of bombers to bomb Istanbul like they did with Bucharest when Romania betrayed them

OK, I have maybe overreacted but as I said the original poster was asking about events not about HISTORICAL AUTHENTICITY of TOAW scenarios.

Care to explain to all of us what TOAW scenario is 100% historically true? LOL

Let me say to you that when scenario designer first start to design scenario in TOAW, history goes down the drain. We have illusion of history in TOAW, our imagination make it look better than it is.

First when they pour number of trucks into divisions or any other formation it is not 100% true because if they give each division number of trucks that they really had some division could travel around GLOBE in TOAW.

Bring John Erricson and Ziemke and Glantz into discussion I don't mind. But that was not original topic here. No need to hijack the thread or it is? Then please continue with history lesson and use of that in TOAW. And your original map is irrelevant. Because that didn't happened to Turkey. They had ATATURK, remember? I have high opinion and respect ATATURK, more than your Churchill. Who was courting Turkey all the time to enter the war in 1943! Not in 1945 when war was almost over! LOL
But that's not the point. I am not here to defend Daniel MCBride of attacks from TOAW Design Group or anyone else who is jealous on his work. He have made some spectacular TOAW scenarios and some little flaws doesn't make it any worse.


Mario

PS. And in anyway Turkey would rather be on the side of Germany THAN Stalins Russia. That's was maybe Daniel argument to have a little chance to bring Turkey against Russia they archenemy. And balance of the scenario. Scenarios is pro Soviet and hard to play as Germany, very hard.

[MonkeysBrain2]

Until 1941, both Roosevelt and Churchill thought that continued Turkish neutrality would serve the interests of the Allies by blocking the Axis from reaching the strategic oil reserves of the Middle East. But the early victories of the Axis up to the end of 1942 caused Roosevelt and Churchill to re-evaluate a possible Turkish participation in the war on the side of the Allies. Turkey had maintained a decently-sized Army and Air Force throughout the war, and Churchill wanted the Turks to open a new front in the Balkans. Roosevelt, on the other hand, still believed that a Turkish attack would be too risky. İnönü knew very well the hardships which his country had suffered during 11 years of incessant war between 1911 and 1922 and was determined to keep Turkey out of another war as long as he could. İnönü also wanted assurances on financial and military aid for Turkey, as well as a guarantee that the United States and the United Kingdom would stand beside Turkey in case of a Soviet invasion of the Turkish Straits after the war.

In April 1944, Turkey halted its sales of Chromite to Germany, and broke off relations in August. Turkey declared war on the Axis powers in February, 1945, after the Allies made its invitation to the inaugural meeting of the United Nations (along with the invitations of several other nations) conditional on full belligerency. No Turkish troops ever saw combat.
.............

Ok this is from Wikipedia.

Since you have brought the TOPIC of Turkey and history here. So you did read Colonel Seaton book Russo-German War?
And what Stalin asked to join Axis???

Well, Russian had this aspiration of Turkish Strait for couple of hundreds of years.

Even British foreign policy in 19th century centered on KEEPING Russians away from straits! Read Castles of Steel for example...

So in fact, Turkey DID joined Allies because they have CHICKENED out of Russia!

One or more Russian armies were parked in southern Bulgaria looking upon Turkey! If you didn't know that. In 1945!

That's why Turkey entered the war on the side of the Allies, not because they were anti German but because they were frightened of Russia!

It would be strange for Russia to attack Turkey after they joined the Allies, eh????
Next time for the historical authenticity, include that.



Mario

[MonkeysBrain2]

And one more case of Turkey participating on the side of Central Powers in 1914.

Read "Dreadnoughts" for example, how British has seized 2 Turkish Dreadnoughts and promised to pay Turkey 5000 GBP weekly until the end of war or something like that and to give them 2 new ships after the war.

That was perfidious.

Yes, maybe Turkey would anyway join Central Powers because of Berlin-Baghdad railroad and financial ties with Germany etc...
But, Churchill was acting there like for me very negative character in this case for seizing Turkish ships that Turkey already paid for! NO EXCUSE FOR THAT FOR YOUR MR. CHURCHILL!

[MonkeysBrain2]

I played Braunschweig LONG LONG time ago. 15 years ago. So I've read DOC file again. That scenario have many other WHAT IFs.
I recommend others to read it as well.

So this is deliberate design which includes many other what ifs like employment of Dietl mountain division, 1 Falshirmajaeger division, almost all 11th Army (instead of going to Leningrad).. etc, etc...

Turkish involvement was strictly limited to Caucasus. No declaration of war to Britain, or USA. Just action to protect Muslim minorities in the Caucasus. And Russians get some USA and UK air units...

So this is strictly WHAT IF scenario, it is not based on hard historical facts. An all out German effort there.

I forgot that I admit.

But you have also obviously didn't read DOC of that scenario or played it. So your first post with that map was also completely out of picture. OK, maybe I have overreacted but let's close this discussion, or continue as you will.

So, I repeat as a WHAT IF scenario it is entirely legal to portray conflict as some desires even if that means bringing Turkey against USSR and on the side of Germany (but strictly in Caucasus). In the notes there is part that Turkey would not attack UK or USA if they are not firstly attacked. Perfectly legal for what if scenario.

I admit that I forgot DOC notes and what this scenario tries to do, I have played it against Raver 15 years ago and won, and wrote and AAR. But that was so long that I forgot that it is WHAT IF.

What is your excuse? You din't obviously played it or read DOCs but have brought this to some political debate about Turkey and WW2. Suit yourself.

In the end - Daniel McBride is best scenario designer ever for TOAW, and this discussion will not change anything in that regard. You on the other hand had tried to minimize this so either you are jealous on Daniel McBride or I don't know.
But next time it would be good that you are also better informed what is WHAT IF scenario or scenario that tries to be historically as correct as possible.



Mario

[Lobster]

What if the Japanese Kwangtung army moved against the Soviets in 1941 would have been one to put in too. Much more likely than the Turks.

[Lobster]

If Spain had entered the war on the side of the Axis Gibraltar would have been lost. Malta likely would have been taken. The Italians and Germans would have a better supply line to North Africa. The U.K. in North Africa would have been in more trouble. Spain entering on the side of the Axis would be a very interesting event. It would even have ramifications on the Eastern Front.

[Lobster]

An event for the East Front that's about as likely as a Turkish intervention is giving the Germans some Ukranian units. I've only seen that once, SPI War in the East. And if someone is going that far then might as well throw in some units from the Baltic nations too. At least they actually did fight against the Soviets.

[MonkeysBrain2]

OK Lobster, I apologize if I was rude. Bad day I guess.

So please forgive me - it's not your fault for me having a bad day LOL or bad year LOL in mafia state called whatever.

You are right in that regard that Turkey had no real interest to side with anyone in World War 2.

My ancestors fought both Nazis and Russians in WW1. I know one thing, Russian dream since fall of Constantinople was to size Turkish straits. There are many things and interest but mainly their dream is to conquer Istanbul and install their church and religion there
And they deported whole peoples, like Kalmyks, Crimean Tatar etc.... which we see now that is reflected in worldwide geostrategical situation and history. They sized Crimea from Ukraine but naturally it was much easier because there is no Crimean Tatars there anymore.

But back to TOAW and playing TOAW, no more politics. [:@]
[:D]

TOAW is king of all games so better to keep this forums clean of politics. It's dirty in whole world. It's criminal organisation at least in my country, goddamn them all.


Mario

[Hellen_slith]

I have been following this discussion with great interest,
and one observation I hope you all will consider,
is that in many respects,
TOAW is a sort of "time machine" ... sort of like books are "time machines."

I really really like reading historical novels (like Upton Sinclair's "Lanny Budd" series)
and playing TOAW only enhances the "feel" of "traveling back in time"

One thing that is gnawing at me lately, is Finland's role in the Great Patriotic War of Deliverance (Soviet side)
and that is a sticking point for us playing Fite@2 in our club effort.....

but that kind of "historical background" is, I think, essential to the "feel" of a scenario.
Anyway, I just thought I'd throw that out there, to think about.

Have a great gaming day!

[Lobster]

From a historical viewpoint I've always felt the Finns should be given an ending point to any offensives. End of October to the south of Belomorsk-Rugazero line and end of November north of that line. Any advances they make up until that time are fine regardless of where any historical stop line was. BTW, the Finns far exceeded their pre Winter War borders especially near Lake Onega. When someone reads the historical narrative there isn't much wriggle room for making up a way to allow them to continue any offensive beyond historical time boundries without literally killing off some historical characters.

By allowing the Finns to press as far as they can until October/November and eliminating artificial stop lines the Soviets are prevented from wholesale abandonment of the Karelia and points north.

Just my opinion.