American Carrier question

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Ian R

they would stand greater chance of coordinating

That word almost invariably means die rolls.

The "chance of uncoordination is doubled" indicates to me that the default condition is 'co-ordinated', although it would I think be naive to think the chance of uncoordination is ever zero%

There is, however, a possibility that if there are enough other factors elevating the % chance uncoordination, doubling might push it over 100$.

As the precise formula will remain undisclosed, it's best just to stay within limits - or if you go over, go way over. Maybe some DBs will sneak in after the CAP is fatigued.

Hey, don't complain about that - it worked at Midway!

I'm not sure it reliably works that way in the game, unless the CAP was already saturated, or what was available and on standby is surprised (E.G. the IJN didn't have radar and detected it late) and has a short time to climb to DB altitude... so maybe on a 'good'(or 'bad') day, and depending on target die rolls as well, it does work in the game in the sense that is possible that accident of history will be recreated.

I remember Harry Rowland (WiF designer) saying that he thought luck should play a part in that game, to prevent perfect plans, but not so as one die roll swung the whole game. AE seems to me to reflect that philosophy, intentionally or not.

[fcooke]

IIRC, AA for TFs does not get reduced but the ships over 15 do not add their full 'paper' AA.

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Ian R



That word almost invariably means die rolls.

The "chance of uncoordination is doubled" indicates to me that the default condition is 'co-ordinated', although it would I think be naive to think the chance of uncoordination is ever zero%

There is, however, a possibility that if there are enough other factors elevating the % chance uncoordination, doubling might push it over 100$.

As the precise formula will remain undisclosed, it's best just to stay within limits - or if you go over, go way over. Maybe some DBs will sneak in after the CAP is fatigued.

Hey, don't complain about that - it worked at Midway!

I'm not sure it reliably works that way in the game, unless the CAP was already saturated, or what was available and on standby is surprised (E.G. the IJN didn't have radar and detected it late) and has a short time to climb to DB altitude... so maybe on a 'good'(or 'bad') day, and depending on target die rolls as well, it does work in the game in the sense that is possible that accident of history will be recreated.

I remember Harry Rowland (WiF designer) saying that he thought luck should play a part in that game, to prevent perfect plans, but not so as one die roll swung the whole game. AE seems to me to reflect that philosophy, intentionally or not.

I think I remember reading dev comments that the way CAP interacts with multiple strikes is to split the allocated fighters on CAP to various strike packages, instead of the old WitP's way of the full CAP meeting every single strikes.

That way, I do believe the actual penalty for an actual lack of coordination is lessened compared to the old game, the main contention being unescorted bombers.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

...I think I remember reading dev comments that the way CAP interacts with multiple strikes is to split the allocated fighters on CAP to various strike packages, instead of the old WitP's way of the full CAP meeting every single strikes...

Not quite.

Air combat is in two stages. Stage 1 is CAP confronting enemy fighters (fighter v fighter) and stage 2 is CAP confronting enemy bombers (fighter v bomber).

All possible available CAP is involved in stage 1. There are several factors which actually determine exactly how much CAP participates in combat. These factors are much more extensive than were those which applied in classical WITP.

Some time is left separate to resolve stage 2 combat. This is a significant difference with classical WITP in that there CAP had to totally defeat the escorting fighters in stage 1 before they could get to the bombers in stage 2. In AE it is possible that stage 2 will commence even though all enemy escorting fighters have not been defeated in stage 1.

CAP addresses the immediate incoming raid. It doesn't keep some fighter aircraft in reserve for possible follow up enemy raids.

Alfred

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

...I remember Harry Rowland (WiF designer) saying that he thought luck should play a part in that game, to prevent perfect plans, but not so as one die roll swung the whole game. AE seems to me to reflect that philosophy, intentionally or not.

It is quite intentional in AE. The role of luck is a fundamental principle baked into the AE design.

Alfred

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: Alfred


It is quite intentional in AE. The role of luck is a fundamental principle baked into the AE design.

Alfred

Like in real war.

Sometimes it is better be lucky than good. Noted for to be Napoleon, but:

Cardinal Mazarin, chief minister of France in the 17th century, said.

Mazarin had noted that one must not ask of a general “Est-il habile?” (“Is he skillful?”), but rather “Est-il heureux?” (“Is he lucky?”)

[CaptBeefheart]

One thing to consider is the possibility of separate CV TFs reacting differently to threats. More than one veteran of this forum has had a Halsey-led TF go ahead of the rest of the Deathstar and get slaughtered, even when set to follow another TF. Another factor is the number of escorts available.

Cheers,
CB

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

...I think I remember reading dev comments that the way CAP interacts with multiple strikes is to split the allocated fighters on CAP to various strike packages, instead of the old WitP's way of the full CAP meeting every single strikes...

Not quite.

Air combat is in two stages. Stage 1 is CAP confronting enemy fighters (fighter v fighter) and stage 2 is CAP confronting enemy bombers (fighter v bomber).

All possible available CAP is involved in stage 1. There are several factors which actually determine exactly how much CAP participates in combat. These factors are much more extensive than were those which applied in classical WITP.

Some time is left separate to resolve stage 2 combat. This is a significant difference with classical WITP in that there CAP had to totally defeat the escorting fighters in stage 1 before they could get to the bombers in stage 2. In AE it is possible that stage 2 will commence even though all enemy escorting fighters have not been defeated in stage 1.

CAP addresses the immediate incoming raid. It doesn't keep some fighter aircraft in reserve for possible follow up enemy raids.

Alfred

Yeah, I got the two stages, but I thought the game split the CAP between the different strike packages before resolving each of them, and that not all planes appearing on CAP during a raid resolution actually participated to that resolution.

Better explaining goes with an example (I'm not a native English speaker).

Say two squadrons of fighters are on CAP (2x25 fighters), with 50% CAP (and no scrambling fighters to simplify), so 25 fighters are on CAP duty during a raid.
Say this raid splits in three due to lack of coordination or whatever (maybe they're not meant).
I thought the game would allocate the CAP complement to the different strike packages, for example like this :
- 12 fighters against strike 1
- 9 fighters against strike 2
- 4 fighters against strike 3
And that during strike 1 resolution, there might appear more than 12 fighters, but they would not take part in the battle.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

...I think I remember reading dev comments that the way CAP interacts with multiple strikes is to split the allocated fighters on CAP to various strike packages, instead of the old WitP's way of the full CAP meeting every single strikes...

Not quite.

Air combat is in two stages. Stage 1 is CAP confronting enemy fighters (fighter v fighter) and stage 2 is CAP confronting enemy bombers (fighter v bomber).

All possible available CAP is involved in stage 1. There are several factors which actually determine exactly how much CAP participates in combat. These factors are much more extensive than were those which applied in classical WITP.

Some time is left separate to resolve stage 2 combat. This is a significant difference with classical WITP in that there CAP had to totally defeat the escorting fighters in stage 1 before they could get to the bombers in stage 2. In AE it is possible that stage 2 will commence even though all enemy escorting fighters have not been defeated in stage 1.

CAP addresses the immediate incoming raid. It doesn't keep some fighter aircraft in reserve for possible follow up enemy raids.

Alfred

Yeah, I got the two stages, but I thought the game split the CAP between the different strike packages before resolving each of them, and that not all planes appearing on CAP during a raid resolution actually participated to that resolution.

Better explaining goes with an example (I'm not a native English speaker).

Say two squadrons of fighters are on CAP (2x25 fighters), with 50% CAP (and no scrambling fighters to simplify), so 25 fighters are on CAP duty during a raid.
Say this raid splits in three due to lack of coordination or whatever (maybe they're not meant).
I thought the game would allocate the CAP complement to the different strike packages, for example like this :
- 12 fighters against strike 1
- 9 fighters against strike 2
- 4 fighters against strike 3
And that during strike 1 resolution, there might appear more than 12 fighters, but they would not take part in the battle.

Using your very simplified exemplar.

1. When strike 1 is detected, the defender does not know that a strike 2, strike 3 is incoming, hence all 25 CAP fighters will attempt to engage the enemy escorting fighters. This is stage 1 of the strike 1 air combat.

2. Not all CAP fighters, nor all enemy escorting fighters will necessarily see combat before stage 1 ends. This is the key difference with classical WITP as there, stage 2 air combat only commenced when the CAP or escorts were totally defeated. In AE if possible some CAP is held in reserve to participate in stage 2 of strike 1.

3. When strike 2 is detected, all the remaining CAP fighters are sent up to meet strike 2. The same considerations apply to stages 1 and 2 of strike 2.

4. When strike 3 is detected, all the remaining CAP fighters are sent up to meet strike 3 and so on.


It is precisely because everything possible is sent up to meet each strike as it is detected and each strike reduces the number of available CAP fighters, that there may be no available CAP fighters available to meet the incoming strike 7.

It is not always beneficial to the attacker to have perfect air coordination with all the bombers arriving on time at the target simultaneously with all their escorting fighters in a single strike.

Alfred

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: Alfred




Not quite.

Air combat is in two stages. Stage 1 is CAP confronting enemy fighters (fighter v fighter) and stage 2 is CAP confronting enemy bombers (fighter v bomber).

All possible available CAP is involved in stage 1. There are several factors which actually determine exactly how much CAP participates in combat. These factors are much more extensive than were those which applied in classical WITP.

Some time is left separate to resolve stage 2 combat. This is a significant difference with classical WITP in that there CAP had to totally defeat the escorting fighters in stage 1 before they could get to the bombers in stage 2. In AE it is possible that stage 2 will commence even though all enemy escorting fighters have not been defeated in stage 1.

CAP addresses the immediate incoming raid. It doesn't keep some fighter aircraft in reserve for possible follow up enemy raids.

Alfred

Yeah, I got the two stages, but I thought the game split the CAP between the different strike packages before resolving each of them, and that not all planes appearing on CAP during a raid resolution actually participated to that resolution.

Better explaining goes with an example (I'm not a native English speaker).

Say two squadrons of fighters are on CAP (2x25 fighters), with 50% CAP (and no scrambling fighters to simplify), so 25 fighters are on CAP duty during a raid.
Say this raid splits in three due to lack of coordination or whatever (maybe they're not meant).
I thought the game would allocate the CAP complement to the different strike packages, for example like this :
- 12 fighters against strike 1
- 9 fighters against strike 2
- 4 fighters against strike 3
And that during strike 1 resolution, there might appear more than 12 fighters, but they would not take part in the battle.

Using your very simplified exemplar.

1. When strike 1 is detected, the defender does not know that a strike 2, strike 3 is incoming, hence all 25 CAP fighters will attempt to engage the enemy escorting fighters. This is stage 1 of the strike 1 air combat.

2. Not all CAP fighters, nor all enemy escorting fighters will necessarily see combat before stage 1 ends. This is the key difference with classical WITP as there, stage 2 air combat only commenced when the CAP or escorts were totally defeated. In AE if possible some CAP is held in reserve to participate in stage 2 of strike 1.

3. When strike 2 is detected, all the remaining CAP fighters are sent up to meet strike 2. The same considerations apply to stages 1 and 2 of strike 2.

4. When strike 3 is detected, all the remaining CAP fighters are sent up to meet strike 3 and so on.


It is precisely because everything possible is sent up to meet each strike as it is detected and each strike reduces the number of available CAP fighters, that there may be no available CAP fighters available to meet the incoming strike 7.

It is not always beneficial to the attacker to have perfect air coordination with all the bombers arriving on time at the target simultaneously with all their escorting fighters in a single strike.

Alfred

Thanks, apparently I misinterpreted something I read a long time ago.