[Logged] RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no guidance

[Battelman2]

I'm with guanotwozero here, heading home as soon as the missile is off the rail does not seem appropriate even for the Shotgun weapon state.

[thewood1]

It is if that's the order. There is another order to stop it from doing that. The wrong order was used.

[guanotwozero]

Well, I'm still not finding a suitable realistic combo. I appear to be faced with a choice of :

1) go home after the first encounter
2) go home immediately the last missile is off the rail
3) don't go home until explicitly told to do so

What do I need to do for 4) go home after last missile fired and guided?

[Twistedpretzel]

Doctrine doesn't equal tactics, I think that is being confused.

If I want my aircraft to expend all of their BVR weapons on the enemy they should expend those weapons effectively using sound tactics. That includes illuminating the target and providing guidance via datalink until the weapon takes control of its own guidance with active radar homing. That is following doctrine and tactics. That is not micromanagement, and not unreasonable. I am part of the club that agrees this is flawed behavior with all three of the "Shotgun: All BVR or standoff weapons have been expended" doctrines. If there is no target of opportunity the same thing occurs. As soon as all BVR weapons are off the rails the pilot heads for home even if the weapon needs guidance via datalink prior to using its own sensors.

It isn't an extra doctrine, or doctrine description issue. It isn't a feature. Maybe it is an oversight, but I firmly believe the pilot should be capable of doing his job and guiding his weapons until it is no longer required before RTB with those specific shotgun doctrines.

[Battelman2]

Yeah I don't think the wrong order is being used. The shotgun state should allow guidance- otherwise why would they even fire the missile in the first place.

[thewood1]

Because they might be firing one at a time. Now you get into WRA. There is a setting that you can use to do this. Play the scenario through. Change the Weapon State and it Colt86 comes around guides.

[thewood1]

So went in and substituted the Hornet Fs for Cs with AIM-7Ps. Using exactly the same mission as Colt86. The 18s cranked until the missiles impacted because they are SARH. As I said earlier, the 120s are not requiring guidance from the original 18s. They had over 75% kill rate.

[Battelman2]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

So went in and substituted the Hornet Fs for Cs with AIM-7Ps. Using exactly the same mission as Colt86. The 18s cranked until the missiles impacted because they are SARH. As I said earlier, the 120s are not requiring guidance from the original 18s. They had over 75% kill rate.

Just because the AIM-120s don't require pre-terminal guidance doesn't mean the Hornet F should immediately disengage. Guidance is a core part of BVR combat and should be treated as such by the weapon state unless otherwise specified- which it isn't.

[thewood1]

Actually this is why you should play the posted scenario before chiming in. Colt86's co-patrol unit of Hornets is guiding them.

So Colt86 is unloading its BVRs, turning tracking over to its partner group, and following orders to bug out and "disengage immediately".

[Twistedpretzel]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Actually this is why you should play the posted scenario before chiming in. Colt86's co-patrol unit of Hornets is guiding them.

So Colt86 is unloading its BVRs, turning tracking over to its partner group, and following orders to bug out and "disengage immediately".

The issue occurs in any scenario with that doctrine selected. There are plenty of scenarios and instances where the weapon won't or can't be guided by a different unit.

[thewood1]

I just showed it works for SARH with a Sparrow. Did you even open the scenario?

Removed the patrol partner before starting the scenario. Colt86 immediately re-establishes datalinks to its missiles. One of the units comes back around to provide guidance.

Interestingly, if a Hornet provides any mid-course guidance the 120s go after their original launch targets. If data link is lost, on average, they choose different aircraft to hit. Just a neat feature that most people will miss.

I check Janes. Several countries, notably the UK, chose 120s that didn't do midcourse guidance. They upgraded a few years ago. The point is, as I pointed out again, 120s without midcourse will still have good percentages of hits against H-6s that barely maneuver.

[thewood1]

So, these units are doing EXACTLY what were ordered to do.

[Twistedpretzel]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I just showed it works for SARH with a Sparrow. Did you even open the scenario?

This problem is not scenario specific.

The problem. "RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no guidance."

This will happen anytime a unit fires their last BVR weapon while "Weapon State, Pre-Planned:" is "Shotgun: All BVR or standoff weapons have been expended". This is not a scenario specific problem.

In my opinion the unit should guide their weapons until it is no longer necessary before RTB with that specific weapon state doctrine. If you disagree that is fine. In this scenario it is luck that another unit is nearby to guide the weapon, but that is not always the case and the root problem remains unsolved in many other instances.

Since I don't micromanage and I typically want my units to engage with all their BVR weapons but NOT engage with WVR or RTB after a single salvo this is probably one of the doctrine settings I use most often and have the same issue consistently. Unit fires a salvo of BVR weapons then runs away without providing guidance because they don't have any left on the rails.

There are workarounds like you mentioned. You can micromanage to prevent this. Use a weapon state doctrine that has the unit close to WVR range such as "Winchester" or "One engagement with both BVR and WVR".

Or do whatever is necessary with development so with this doctrine a unit will guide BVR weapons until it is no longer necessary (a proper tactic at the unit level) then RTB.

[thewood1]

Again, I showed thats not true. I'll repeat. I added a Hornet C with Sparrows. It guided them in. I assume you didn't see that.

[thewood1]

Just again to clarify...

Added the Hornet Cs with Sparrows. Assigned them to the exact same mission as the Fs. Has the same BVR logic. It fires its Sparrows...all of them. It cranks to guide them. As soon as they hit, the Hornet Cs disengage and RTB.

[thewood1]

"This problem is not scenario specific"

You'll have to bring an example. I just ran a Hornet C w/ Sparrow test and it worked until the last BVR weapon every single time.

[Twistedpretzel]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Just again to clarify...

Added the Hornet Cs with Sparrows. Assigned them to the exact same mission as the Fs. Has the same BVR logic. It fires its Sparrows...all of them. It cranks to guide them. As soon as they hit, the Hornet Cs disengage and RTB.

So you agree that is the proper tactic under that doctrine.

We have narrowed the issue down to F/A-18F's or AIM-120D if the same behavior is not exhibited with F/A-18C's and sparrows. The problem still exists. Units will not provide guidance to BVR weapons and go straight to RTB under this specific doctrine if they don't have any BVR weapons left.

I am of the opinion they should provide guidance. I have a feeling this may be specific to the AIM-120D or any weapon that has mid-course guidance from a friendly illuminator and datalink before using its own organic sensor for terminal guidance.

I played the saved scenario. If Gypsy59 is removed from the equation Colt86 will RTB without providing guidance to his weapons.

[thewood1]

There is no problem. The 120s don't need guidance from the firing unit. Its partner unit maintains the guidance. Its exactly how it should work. Its interpreting its orders as disengage immediately. It doesn't need to guide so disengages.

"I played the saved scenario. If Gypsy59 is removed from the equation Colt86 will RTB without providing guidance to his weapons."

Nope. Have done this a dozen times now. If the other unit is removed, the trailing Colt86 plane will turn and reacquire datalink to the 120s.
Then Colt86's trailing unit maintains datalink until the 120s lock on to the enemy themselves. Then retreats.

[thewood1]

Note the 18C fired its last Sparrow. Its maintaining lock. As soon as the Sparrow hits or fails, the 18C goes RTB.

[thewood1]

Decided to show the entire screen. Note no Sparrows left. And its on the same mission as the 18Fs were.