Why are subs so much worse in this game vs WIE and WAW?

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Wikipedia says Room 40 didn't provide much real time sub location intelligence. It sounds like if the Admiralty had been more openminded, then more may have been possible, but in reality the information was rarely transmitted in a timely fashion convoys or warships at sea.

Hmmmm...well, it seems like they won't budge on this thing. Still, its only a 1% or 2% chance per S&I (spy) level for a submarine in silent mode to be detected. Perhaps, a passing commercial ship relayed the info, or a long lined tuna decided it was time to talk. [:D]

[Chernobyl]

2% is a lot. If you have 8 subs creeping around the enemy fleet they're going to find a couple of them and destroy them just due to signals over the course of a year. Consider that much of the journey of subs to and from the Atlantic is spent rather close to large numbers of enemy vessels. Some of them are low on supply or damaged and attempting to return. I don't see how you could wage a (historically wildly effective) sub campaign in 1917 if you're getting ambushed like that.

Signals intelligence gathered should be of limited use due to the underdeveloped relationship between the army/navy and intelligence. This isn't Bletchley Park in 1944.

[mdsmall]

Perhaps the existing FOW function which notifies the Entente player if a German sub has been convoy raiding could be adapted to S&I effects against subs in Silent mode anywhere on the board. The FOW function (as far as I can tell) gives you a good idea of where an enemy raider was two turns ago. It's a clue, but not one you can rely on to find a sub and kill it, provided it has moved in the intervening turn. If S&I reveals a sub (either in Silent Mode or perhaps in both modes), there also could be a one turn delay before notification. It does not exempt them completely from being revealed, but it would help their survivability a great deal. This seems justifiable to me, since S&I seems to have a much bigger effect in practice in exposing naval units on the high seas, versus land units behind the front lines, to enemy attack.

[Chernobyl]

Incidentally the S&I detection also eventually finds all your opponents minefields which makes them worthless. Not sure if that was the intention or not.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Perhaps the existing FOW function which notifies the Entente player if a German sub has been convoy raiding could be adapted to S&I effects against subs in Silent mode anywhere on the board. The FOW function (as far as I can tell) gives you a good idea of where an enemy raider was two turns ago. It's a clue, but not one you can rely on to find a sub and kill it, provided it has moved in the intervening turn. If S&I reveals a sub (either in Silent Mode or perhaps in both modes), there also could be a one turn delay before notification. It does not exempt them completely from being revealed, but it would help their survivability a great deal. This seems justifiable to me, since S&I seems to have a much bigger effect in practice in exposing naval units on the high seas, versus land units behind the front lines, to enemy attack.

This might be a good remedy actually.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Incidentally the S&I detection also eventually finds all your opponents minefields which makes them worthless. Not sure if that was the intention or not.

Yeah, I noticed that. I've started using them 'tactically' now during or in anticipation of an engagement instead of making a defensive net that's easily detected by different means. I started hoarding mines now where in the past I'd lay them down almost immediately in a defensive belt or whatever.

[Chernobyl]

I have a bit of a bias as a Central Powers player

Anyhow I did some testing. Yes intel/signals does detect subs. Out of port. Either silent or cruise mode both get detected.

It wasn't quite as often as I thought, but still could easily result in a few sub losses over the course of a game, mostly depending on where the sub happens to be located relative to your destroyer death ball.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

I have a bit of a bias as a Central Powers player

Anyhow I did some testing. Yes intel/signals does detect subs. Out of port. Either silent or cruise mode both get detected.

It wasn't quite as often as I thought, but still could easily result in a few sub losses over the course of a game, mostly depending on where the sub happens to be located relative to your destroyer death ball.

Its unfortunate for a player when their transport has been detected and they don't know it. Of course, its usually an Entente transport moving something from England to Egypt or Greece perhaps..and they didn't bother to send an escort or advanced sqdr to sweep the route.

These cases are rare, and a successful ambush even rarer...but if the transport is sunk, it can be a game changer if said transport had a HQ unit on board. [X(]

[Chernobyl]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
it can be a game changer if said transport had a HQ unit on board. [X(]

Does one sub attack really ever do 10 damage to a transport?

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
it can be a game changer if said transport had a HQ unit on board. [X(]

Does one sub attack really ever do 10 damage to a transport?

I don't know..possibly if the transport was in cruise mode and crashed into a surfaced upgraded submarine? This calls for a hotseat test and find out.

In a game long ways back I crashed a transport with a UK corp on it into an AH Dreadnought in the eastern Med.
It was like an alpha strike..boom!..10 damage, all hands lost. I have no idea how it got out there but it may have been lurking for sometime in some out of the way spot like the armpit of Libya or a nook on the Anatolian coast. The DN got sunk next turn but the loss of that corp was brutal since the UK was barely above water money-wise and the Canal or Kuwait was calling. The turn previously an HQ from England had just got through and landed at Alexandria...so phew! I always send out pathfinders when transports are involved now [:)]

Edit: I always suspected he knew my transport was coming perhaps from a previous S&I check..but I did't ask and he didn't tell. The DN was right astride the convoy line somewhere north of the Libya-Egyptian border..and there was no raider indication,(it was probably turned off) so it was rather odd and I have always wondered if it was a planned ambush or just lucky.

[Chernobyl]

Haha my first thought was how did a dreadnought get past the blockade? I have found some of my opponents set up a gigantic Adriatic blockade immediately and some don't at all. Some even try to push into that sea with their navy for whatever reason.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Haha my first thought was how did a dreadnought get past the blockade? I have found some of my opponents set up a gigantic Adriatic blockade immediately and some don't at all. Some even try to push into that sea with their navy for whatever reason.

Had to be opening move with cruise and he tucked it in to a bay on the Greek coast or Taranto Bay. I always put a sub there at the mouth of the Adriatic, even though it's a 5 strength, and try to at least contest the convoy route into Montenegro soon after. The other two subs I try to reinforce at a French Port then send them up into the Adriatic in silent mode to 'check on'
the AH fleet, and keep that surveillance up.

This time I didn't because this opponent made really unorthodox moves like bringing the whole of the IGN out into the Atlantic to do a suicide battle during the first 3 to 4 turns including his subs. As a result, I pulled a bunch of naval assets out of the Med and just left a scratch force to do an overwatch, hoping the Italians would get in the war by April 1915. These suicide attacks were also going on on the land, and the game was over by autumn of 1915 with his defeat.

I was using this ambush of my transport as an example, but that game I didn't particularly enjoy because essentially there was no rhyme or reason to what this opponent did at all.

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks for the feedback everyone and I have to be honest here, after catching up on the more recent posts here, I've realized now that I did mix up the fact that this was in the WWI forum for the game. Just meaning much of what I wrote does lean more towards WWII thinking on subs than specifically for WWI.

If players are finding it hard to get their subs out to sea, or even keeping them alive, and more so in this game than in the WWII games and if the Intelligence hits are playing a significant role in that we are open to the possibility of some minor changes that could help.

Please keep the suggestions and ideas coming and we'll have a think on it as well.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Thanks for the feedback everyone and I have to be honest here, after catching up on the more recent posts here, I've realized now that I did mix up the fact that this was in the WWI forum for the game. Just meaning much of what I wrote does lean more towards WWII thinking on subs than specifically for WWI.

If players are finding it hard to get their subs out to sea, or even keeping them alive, and more so in this game than in the WWII games and if the Intelligence hits are playing a significant role in that we are open to the possibility of some minor changes that could help.

Please keep the suggestions and ideas coming and we'll have a think on it as well.

Thanks Hubert!

Was trying to remember if any changes in subs were made in the WW1 game patches yet?

Is it possible to list the differences in subs here between the WW1 and WW2 games? Are they meant to be shorter ranged and weaker in this game? I'm assuming so due to earlier technology as Old Crow mentioned. I'm trying to figure out how and why in WW1 subs were more devastating vs WW2 yet in this game they seem weaker and more difficult to use? One big difference to me is the larger numbers of ships the allies have to both blockade and immediately bum rush any discovered sub and not having to deal with any significant enemy navy in the Med. Supply is a big issue to surviving since the increased number of allied ships reduce supply with each attack and you cannot go very far to raid. Short ranged, low supplied, allied naval hordes of death, blockades to get through, allied air power... And then you have no French ports to fall back to you have to return all the way back to Germany. It is really difficult to accomplish all of that with inferior subs...

[mdsmall]

As I recall, the only tactical difference is that subs in the WW2 game have a slightly longer range (21 APs versus 18), which makes sense given technology improvements. Since sonar was a WW2 era invention, I wonder if ASW tech should be as strong as it is in the WW1 game? A slight shift in the balance between Advanced Subs and ASW tech would increase the survival rate of German subs.

Most of the differences are the strategic ones you have already listed. But you overlook a major strategic difference with the WW2 game - which are the NM hexes off the British coast and the possibility of shutting down British ports. That strategy does not exist in the WW2 game and it makes the attractions of investing in sub capability much greater for the German player in WW1, even if you have to keep building new ones to replace losses.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

As I recall, the only tactical difference is that subs in the WW2 game have a slightly longer range (21 APs versus 18), which makes sense given technology improvements. Since sonar was a WW2 era invention, I wonder if ASW tech should be as strong as it is in the WW1 game? A slight shift in the balance between Advanced Subs and ASW tech would increase the survival rate of German subs.

Most of the differences are the strategic ones you have already listed. But you overlook a major strategic difference with the WW2 game - which are the NM hexes off the British coast and the possibility of shutting down British ports. That strategy does not exist in the WW2 game and it makes the attractions of investing in sub capability much greater for the German player in WW1, even if you have to keep building new ones to replace losses.

That brings up the next question: Is ASW stronger or weaker in either game? Because it should definitely be weaker in WW1. And yes the NM hexes are for sure the biggest differences between the games. But what good are they if you avoid them or don't take unrestricted sub warfare?

[The Land]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Wikipedia says Room 40 didn't provide much real time sub location intelligence. It sounds like if the Admiralty had been more openminded, then more may have been possible, but in reality the information was rarely transmitted in a timely fashion convoys or warships at sea.

It doesn't sound to me like very many German submarines were sunk as a direct result of signals intelligence, if any.

A balanced approach would be for signals intelligence to detect submarines at the END of your turn rather than the beginning.

The account that I read in Marder's "From Dreadnought to Scapa Flow," which is the canonical five-volume history of the British naval war in WW1, is rather different. Signals intelligence was a big deal for the British in mid-1917 onwards once convoy was introduced. Essentially, submarines were located and convoys routed around the locations of the submarines.

Of course this still differs from the game. They didn't locate submarines and send masses of destroyers to sink them - because the RN had abandoned 'sub hunting' entirely as a technique, because convoy was a far more effective method of protecting merchant ships (and, indeed, or sinking submarines...)

But the game's problem is the whole counter-based subs vs counter-based destroyers, not specifically spying and intelligence.

[Chernobyl]

ORIGINAL: The Land
is rather different

Not sure we even disagree. I think Room 40 did cool stuff, but it most certainly didn't contribute significantly to anti-sub fleets locating and gangbanging German subs.

And are hexes really the problem? It seems there's plenty of room to make subs more stealthy. Simply make it so you don't see a sub unless you pass directly over it (not just adjacent). And allow subs to conduct unrestricted warfare in adjacent hexes (not just directly on the NM hexes).

And change S&I intel on subs to show up at the END of your turn instead of the beginning.

That would make it very difficult to find those pesky subs, which was indeed the historical case.

[Tanaka]

The other thing I've noticed is the subs in this game seem a lot worse at sinking warships. You get a lot of 0,0 odds...Is ASW stronger?

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

The other thing I've noticed is the subs in this game seem a lot worse at sinking warships. You get a lot of 0,0 odds...Is ASW stronger?

Upgrading your subs will help do more damage. Noticed how I pulled some of my big boys off the blockade line after you sniped one? Even 3 or 4 pts of damage to a dreadnought is expensive to repair, and I for one am rather cheap and want to avoid those costs, especially since right now Great Britain is tight on cash, at least for now. [:)]

As for ASW..well ASW1 vs an un-upgraded sub does more damage, and ASW2 OR 3 is absolutely devastating to submarine with out an upgrade. The trick is to keep up or outpace the other in ASW vs Adv Submarine tech.