Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events System

[MAS]

Are HQ units also required as part of the garrisons in Theater Boxes?

I haven't seen any in the screenshots, but presumably there would be a requirement for a certain number / type of HQ's. Do they also influence the CV values, e.g. a lack of HQ's would drastically lower the CVs of the CUs present?

Are the ground forces in TBs or the Reserve Box capable of being organized under HQ's, so that you can transfer an entire army or corps formation at a time?

[MAS]

I have subsequently seen a screenshot with an HQ in the Reserve Box, so that question is answered, but if anyone could answer these other questions it would be appreciated. Thanks much!

[loki100]

yes, they are present, either by via the scripted reinforcement schedule or voluntarily due to a player transfers.

They have a more passive role in the Theatres in that there is no furhter command structure mainly as the combat/supply routines are heavily abstracted.

Similar in the reserve, you can send a HQ with a variable number of combat/support units to the reserve but the relationship is then broken. Prob more common for the Soviet side as you have more command assets that can be in excess of need and may tend to use the reserve both as a refit/training concept and as a final 'Stavka-reserve'. So in the game I am reporting in the AAR, at this stage I had something like 5 combat ready Rifle Corps, a few combat ready divisions and 2-3 Army level HQs in the reserve.

So if I pulled them to the map to replace wrecked formations or as an emergency, I could also pull down a command structure.

If I recall they retained their original commander but shed all their SUs, so I would need to replace that part of their OOB.

[MAS]

thanks!

[Hanny]

Is the events system structured so that pre war events chains can allow a player to follow different outcome choices?, for example have a Fuher conference pre war at start of turn one, event picture on strategic targets for The campaign, and have choices of political or military getting their way, or a fudge and both thinking they did which would be historical and no de buff or buffs to the chain, and ends the chain, or further events from military choice could give bonus vps for casualty infliction in the initial turns, and no top generals can be replaced in the initial period, and increased cost to do so in the latter period, etc as the military get their way, or political choice giving a vp bonus to taking x city or a production pool boost of x and so on.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Is the events system structured so that pre war events chains can allow a player to follow different outcome choices?, for example have a Fuher conference pre war at start of turn one, event picture on strategic targets for The campaign, and have choices of political or military getting their way, or a fudge and both thinking they did which would be historical and no de buff or buffs to the chain, and ends the chain, or further events from military choice could give bonus vps for casualty infliction in the initial turns, and no top generals can be replaced in the initial period, and increased cost to do so in the latter period, etc as the military get their way, or political choice giving a vp bonus to taking x city or a production pool boost of x and so on.

No. at the moment there are no 'what-if' and very few either/or style events. I think that is mainly for sanity in the testing/production process ... as you can readily imagine balancing this thing (never mind catching unintended consequences as creative testers are let loose on the systems) is a challenge without major splits in the outcomes you are trying to control.

Having said all that, the event syntax is easy to use (if you know the games, its easier than in the AGEOD games as it has an 'or' function), and there is no reason why it can't be used create the entry point to different set ups and/or branching sets of consequences. But I suspect you are then looking at player mods.

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: loki100


No. at the moment there are no 'what-if' and very few either/or style events. I think that is mainly for sanity in the testing/production process ... as you can readily imagine balancing this thing (never mind catching unintended consequences as creative testers are let loose on the systems) is a challenge without major splits in the outcomes you are trying to control.

Having said all that, the event syntax is easy to use (if you know the games, its easier than in the AGEOD games as it has an 'or' function), and there is no reason why it can't be used create the entry point to different set ups and/or branching sets of consequences. But I suspect you are then looking at player mods.

So more of a historical information event system at present rather than interactive, but has that capability.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Hanny

ORIGINAL: loki100


No. at the moment there are no 'what-if' and very few either/or style events. I think that is mainly for sanity in the testing/production process ... as you can readily imagine balancing this thing (never mind catching unintended consequences as creative testers are let loose on the systems) is a challenge without major splits in the outcomes you are trying to control.

Having said all that, the event syntax is easy to use (if you know the games, its easier than in the AGEOD games as it has an 'or' function), and there is no reason why it can't be used create the entry point to different set ups and/or branching sets of consequences. But I suspect you are then looking at player mods.

So more of a historical information event system at present rather than interactive, but has that capability.

yeah, basically. Its used to trigger events in the theatre boxes (such as changing combat intensity), to do one off alterations to resources like manpower or to expand/reduce the map area. The internal time lines chain, so if the Allies finish off N Africa say in Feb 43 (no idea if they can, but it does an eg), then the Sicily events will probably come in about May 43 and so on.

But I think you can do some pretty neat stuff with it, certainly make conditional events such as lose city xxx before turn yyy drop NM for 5 turns etc

[ranknfile]

If an on-map unit is scheduled to be transferred to another theater, does one need to take any action (pull them from the front line? Move them to a rail hex?).

[loki100]

no, they are just removed.

You get a direct warning about 5 turns in advance when the unit status shows as 'withdraw' (& can be identified as such using one of the map modes) but thats just to advise you that the unit will go at some stage soon

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: loki100

You get a direct warning about 5 turns in advance when the unit status shows as 'withdraw' (& can be identified as such using one of the map modes) but thats just to advise you that the unit will go at some stage soon

Does the 6th Army remains in the game if they are not lost at Stalingrad?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ORIGINAL: loki100

You get a direct warning about 5 turns in advance when the unit status shows as 'withdraw' (& can be identified as such using one of the map modes) but thats just to advise you that the unit will go at some stage soon

Does the 6th Army remains in the game if they are not lost at Stalingrad?

the formations that were refitted and that returned to the Soviet front are, the ones that refitted and remained in France are treated as transfers.

if you opt for full theatre control, you can over-ride this, but that has the cost of lost VP (lack of forces in the West) and, even worse, more rapid advances by the Western Allies

[juv95hrn]

What would be the effect of a player of Germany, moving more mobile forces to the East, replacing them with "low" quality garrisons from the Ostheer? Would Germany be able to recreate the unstoppable panzerballs of WITE1 again? (maybe a bit more spread out due to logistical constraints but still unbalancing the game).

Also in WITE1 players would come up with tactics of wasting units that were to be withdrawn, while preserving the ones who would not be. What are the implications in regards to Theatre boxes in this aspect?

As excited as I am to the war opening up into more theatres of war, I foresee a multitude of potential semi-exploits or strategies unbalancing any player-vs-player engagement.

Yes, you can play with historical reinforcement schedules. This post is not about that.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

What would be the effect of a player of Germany, moving more mobile forces to the East, replacing them with "low" quality garrisons from the Ostheer? Would Germany be able to recreate the unstoppable panzerballs of WITE1 again? (maybe a bit more spread out due to logistical constraints but still unbalancing the game).

Also in WITE1 players would come up with tactics of wasting units that were to be withdrawn, while preserving the ones who would not be. What are the implications in regards to Theatre boxes in this aspect?

As excited as I am to the war opening up into more theatres of war, I foresee a multitude of potential semi-exploits or strategies unbalancing any player-vs-player engagement.

Yes, you can play with historical reinforcement schedules. This post is not about that.

what we've seen in testing:

a) you cripple your logistics, the opening can be dramatic with the swaps of armour etc but somehow at the end of a stretched logistic chain you have to supply them come the end of August. Also, its not easy to replace, you can't voluntarily pull a Theatre < 90% of its needs, and replacing a Pzr division with second rate stuff is not that easy

b) pointless, they are needed where they are going for the Theatre numbers, if they are badly under-strength they will refit in theatre, you can shed VP and possibly see the Allies advance and still have to find the missing assets

c) I'm sure there are, but the system has a lot of trade-offs and balances

More generally, put too much armour at the end of one of your logistics chain (either side) and all it will do is strangle itself. This is not the WiTE1 binary system where merely having a rail line solves a lot of your problems.

[TheFerret]

Does the AI take advantage of enhanced TB control if it's on?

[Sammy5IsAlive]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ORIGINAL: loki100

You get a direct warning about 5 turns in advance when the unit status shows as 'withdraw' (& can be identified as such using one of the map modes) but thats just to advise you that the unit will go at some stage soon

Does the 6th Army remains in the game if they are not lost at Stalingrad?

the formations that were refitted and that returned to the Soviet front are, the ones that refitted and remained in France are treated as transfers.

if you opt for full theatre control, you can over-ride this, but that has the cost of lost VP (lack of forces in the West) and, even worse, more rapid advances by the Western Allies

Sorry loki, this is still a bit unclear to me. Say if you avoid the historical defeat at Stalingrad and reach the relevant date with 6A fully intact where do those divisions go?

My guess from what you are saying would be that the historically destroyed divisions in all cases get disbanded, their elements go back to the pool to potentially be sent elsewhere and the divisions themselves show up later as 'shell' reinforcements. Whereas the divisions that remained intact enough to be transferred to France will be transferred there under 'default' TB rules and (assuming they are much stronger than their historical equivalents) will slow down Allied progress in France in 44 compared to history. If you have full TB control and a much stronger set of 'surviving' 6A divisions than was the historical case you could potentially keep other theatres at 'par' in terms of historical force commitment and be left with 'spare' divisions to play with in the East?

[loki100]

no, what I'm saying is that historically a number of the 6 Army formations were left in France post-refit due to increased fears of an invasion of France.

the game models that by a withdrawal to the Western Theatre. if they go intact, that is a huge gain to the axis player overall as the assets used for their historical rebuild are then available for other formations.

Those that were refitted post-Stalingrad and returned to the Soviet front are simply never removed in the game, so if you lose them somewhere its up to you to decide to refit or not.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Gotcha [:)]

Thanks loki

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: TheFerret

Does the AI take advantage of enhanced TB control if it's on?

afaik, no

with it on, you can keep all the scripted moves, you have to manually cancel one to stop it (but since a given unit may move between theatres many time, if you do this once you cancel the rest of the chain).

I don't think the AI is subtle enough to walk the tight-rope this option opens up.

I realise most players will want to use it (at least once) but for myself, I really wouldn't. There are all sorts of chains of on map/off map that you put at risk, get the allocation to a Theatre wrong and you can be shedding 1-2 VP a turn (remember the best bonus for an early city capture is +6) and if it involves the Western Allies the axis player can find themselves shedding both VP and seeing a faster advance in the West. That is not just geographical, it affects how quickly the west becomes a serious drain on your equipment and manpower pools.

so picking up on the post above. the only 'spare' axis Pzr/Mot formations worth having in the east in 1941 are in N Africa. So lets say you run down the N Africa theatre and manage to extract them. You will probably lose a VP every other turn as a result (so those divisions had better deliver big time vs the Soviets), if the Allies get to Sicily earlier (& they will), that sets in train the events that ultimately lead to the invasion of France. With France in play, the theatre boxes cease to be a marginal hit on your assets and starts to really eat into what you have available. Do you really want to start that earlier?

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: loki100

no, what I'm saying is that historically a number of the 6 Army formations were left in France post-refit due to increased fears of an invasion of France.

the game models that by a withdrawal to the Western Theatre. if they go intact, that is a huge gain to the axis player overall as the assets used for their historical rebuild are then available for other formations.

Those that were refitted post-Stalingrad and returned to the Soviet front are simply never removed in the game, so if you lose them somewhere its up to you to decide to refit or not.

Thanks, understood.