Poland doesn't surrender

[havoc1371]

Yes, if the Axis fails to defeat Russia by the end of 1943, then it rolls over into a game of survival.

[BillRunacre]

One thing we could do to limit the potential for an early Axis invasion of France and the Low Countries would be to add some RESOURCE scripts affecting some German towns in order to prevent Germany Operating any land units from the east to west for the first 4 turns of the game.

These would make the towns (shown with a yellow dot below) start the game at strength zero, rising by 1 per turn.

This would have minimal effect on Germany's income, but would mean that units would have to Force March to the west, or wait a bit longer before Operating west.

Thoughts?

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

I would suggest a "bid system" or handicap instead for game balance.

[Dorky8]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

One thing we could do to limit the potential for an early Axis invasion of France and the Low Countries would be to add some RESOURCE scripts affecting some German towns in order to prevent Germany Operating any land units from the east to west for the first 4 turns of the game.

These would make the towns (shown with a yellow dot below) start the game at strength zero, rising by 1 per turn.

This would have minimal effect on Germany's income, but would mean that units would have to Force March to the west, or wait a bit longer before Operating west.

Thoughts?

Seems reasonable.

[havoc1371]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

One thing we could do to limit the potential for an early Axis invasion of France and the Low Countries would be to add some RESOURCE scripts affecting some German towns in order to prevent Germany Operating any land units from the east to west for the first 4 turns of the game.

These would make the towns (shown with a yellow dot below) start the game at strength zero, rising by 1 per turn.

This would have minimal effect on Germany's income, but would mean that units would have to Force March to the west, or wait a bit longer before Operating west.

Thoughts?

I don't see what making the Germans force march to return from Poland has to do with historic parameters. Attacking earlier than they did in history is an operational decision more than a political/strategic one. Allies build AA's and place them in France before May 40, because they know they'll need them. I don't have a problem with that as it is a sound decision that the Allies could've decided after observing Poland.

You don't want to remove all choice from decisions on strategy. I like to play historically, but not so strictly that your just repeating the same history.

[Dorky8]

It has nothing to do with history it has to do with how the French/Brit units strength and placed in the development of the game.

Historically there is no way the Germans would be poised to attack Poland and turn around and attack the low countries. The game would game to start in '37/'38.

[Marcinos1985]

Allies build AA's and place them in France before May 40, because they know they'll need them.

Well, they are at war from Sep'39, why shouldn't they arm themselves? They knew GER had planes, I believe. What other things should they do with their MPP's?

Unless you want to recreate IRL situation from May'40, where Allies get surprised. I don't think many games do this though.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

One thing we could do to limit the potential for an early Axis invasion of France and the Low Countries would be to add some RESOURCE scripts affecting some German towns in order to prevent Germany Operating any land units from the east to west for the first 4 turns of the game.

These would make the towns (shown with a yellow dot below) start the game at strength zero, rising by 1 per turn.

This would have minimal effect on Germany's income, but would mean that units would have to Force March to the west, or wait a bit longer before Operating west.

Thoughts?

warspite1

Bill I won't pretend that I understand the game anywhere near enough to pronounce on the best solution for the game.

But what happens is simply ahistorical - not just because it didn't happen - but because it couldn't happen (at least not in the way it can be done at present). The Germans breezed through Poland (relatively) but they still took losses, they still expended much ammunition and they had many lessons to absorb (unsurprising given the rate of growth of the army).

With all that in mind, it would have been a total disaster for Germany to have attacked in the west in late 39 as Hitler wanted them to do. Hitler's bacon was saved by the weather.

From what I can tell the Germans can easily attack Poland and then move West far too early. This means either Poland needs to be stronger so it costs Germany something to conquer, and/or perhaps they get more MPP later and less in the first few turns and/or the weather is worse.

All these things shouldn't stop a German player trying different strategies, but there needs to be an element of risk to doing so to ensure replayability. This risk currently seems absent.

[havoc1371]

"The Germans breezed through Poland (relatively) but they still took losses, they still expended much ammunition and they had many lessons to absorb (unsurprising given the rate of growth of the army)."

I don't know about your games, but in mine against other players, my Germans take casualties that require replacing. I think the game simulates that. The Axis player must use up a lot of mpp's to move those units to France to do an early attack, that they would otherwise spend on new units, research, or replacements. Operationally moving them west also lowers morale and readiness. I've tried early attacks on France and the Low Countries and have learned that readiness and weather generally inhibit any real gain from attacking early, so I've learned to just wait until April 40 before attempting it.

[pjg100]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

One thing we could do to limit the potential for an early Axis invasion of France and the Low Countries would be to add some RESOURCE scripts affecting some German towns in order to prevent Germany Operating any land units from the east to west for the first 4 turns of the game.

These would make the towns (shown with a yellow dot below) start the game at strength zero, rising by 1 per turn.

This would have minimal effect on Germany's income, but would mean that units would have to Force March to the west, or wait a bit longer before Operating west.

Thoughts?

Not crazy about this. Seems like a bolted-on solution to a non-problem. I don't see an early Axis invasion of France as a problem, in part because with the game mechanics as they are it is impossible to force a surrender of France in 1.5 months as happened IRL.

[Marcinos1985]

I've tried early attacks on France and the Low Countries and have learned that readiness and weather generally inhibit any real gain from attacking early, so I've learned to just wait until April 40 before attempting it.

Perhaps checking out those AAR's would change your mind. For courtesy of forum users, I chose those with 'rushing' France and Low countries:

zzmzzm (Axis) vs sveint (Allies) – Belgium Dec’39, Netherlands Jan’40, Luxembourg Feb’40, France 05’40
HamburgerMeat (Allies) vs Cpuncher (Axis) Educational AAR (1.06) – Luxembourg Oct’39, Belgium Nov’39, France Mar’40 (maybe Feb, not exactly sure)
HamburgerMeat (Axis) vs Marcinos1985 (Allies) - highlights from game – Oct’39 Luxembourg, Belgium Dec’39, France 06’1940
ElvisJJRambo (Axis) vs Marcinos1985 (Allies) - highlights from game nr 2 – Luxembourg’39, Belgium Dec’39, France 06’40
TAIFUN (Axis) vs Calcwerc (allies) Full game 1939 – Luxembourg Sep’39, Belgium Nov’39, France 06’40
How the War went: Cpuncher (Allies) vs Fafnir v1.07 Full Game – Belgium Oct’39, London Apr’40, France 06’40, no Vichy though!

Especially last 2 are strong, when it comes to Axis early performance.

Why am I posting this? Because:

Not crazy about this. Seems like a bolted-on solution to a non-problem. I don't see an early Axis invasion of France as a problem, in part because with the game mechanics as they are it is impossible to force a surrender of France in 1.5 months as happened IRL.

And this is the point. I just can't imagine that attacking France in April (not mentioning May) against good Allied player will cause it downfall in historical timespan. I think France would last up to Aug-Sep at least, which places Germany in a very though situation. Again, I don't see the reason why Player would not atack France early in current iteration of the game. Allies can toughen defences significantly if left alone to Spring.

I would rather be in favour of bolstering France a bit, than reducing ability of GER to operate units via artificial changes, even if IRL attacking that early wasn't feasible. Just make Germany's task more challening. [:)]

[Tanaka]

The starting units, positions, and strengths around Poland are very different in WIE vs WAW. Poland in WAW is in a weaker situation. Maybe this could be adjusted a bit? Has a second capital ever been considered?

[Christolos]

ORIGINAL: pjg100

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

One thing we could do to limit the potential for an early Axis invasion of France and the Low Countries would be to add some RESOURCE scripts affecting some German towns in order to prevent Germany Operating any land units from the east to west for the first 4 turns of the game.

These would make the towns (shown with a yellow dot below) start the game at strength zero, rising by 1 per turn.

This would have minimal effect on Germany's income, but would mean that units would have to Force March to the west, or wait a bit longer before Operating west.

Thoughts?

Not crazy about this. Seems like a bolted-on solution to a non-problem. I don't see an early Axis invasion of France as a problem, in part because with the game mechanics as they are it is impossible to force a surrender of France in 1.5 months as happened IRL.

I agree with pjg100.
I think it should be possible for the "what if flavor" but with consequences that make it a gambit and not an automatic win each time.

"The Germans breezed through Poland (relatively) but they still took losses, they still expended much ammunition and they had many lessons to absorb (unsurprising given the rate of growth of the army)."

I don't know about your games, but in mine against other players, my Germans take casualties that require replacing. I think the game simulates that. The Axis player must use up a lot of mpp's to move those units to France to do an early attack, that they would otherwise spend on new units, research, or replacements. Operationally moving them west also lowers morale and readiness. I've tried early attacks on France and the Low Countries and have learned that readiness and weather generally inhibit any real gain from attacking early, so I've learned to just wait until April 40 before attempting it.

I agree with this too.

C

[Christolos]

Post deleted. It was a posting mirror hiccup from my previous pposting...

C

[Dorky8]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

The starting units, positions, and strengths around Poland are very different in WIE vs WAW. Poland in WAW is in a weaker situation. Maybe this could be adjusted a bit? Has a second capital ever been considered?

WiE (12 1/2 day turns) has more turns per year vs WaW (14 day turns)correct. 11 day vs 14 day in the Fall.

[Dorky8]

Maybe the weather could be changed in the low countries & France from Oct/Nov '39 - Feb '40 to have a very high chance of bad weather.

[Marcinos1985]

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

Maybe the weather could be changed in the low countries & France from Oct/Nov '39 - Feb '40 to have a very high chance of bad weather.

Low countries are easily taken in frozen weather. France is another case though.
But be careful what you wish for. If time comes to invade Europe, your weather window would be shorter [:)]

[Dorky8]

Thus '39-'40 [:)]

I think your idea of extra MPPs is probably the best, just throwing out ideas.