DW2: Let's talk about the User Interface

[Miletkir]

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I totally agree on the readability of the UI. It needs to be much cleaner and the most important thing that it is easy to read. Make the background more opaque and the text brighter would do a ton for the overall presentation of the UI.

Actually we started discussing this in a previous thread, and I tried to show with an example that this wouldn't be hard to accomplish on the new UI by tweaking vibrance, brightness and contrast. What I did though was a bit too much to Erik's taste, which is for the UI to be really unobtrusive and discrete. But I'm sure a middle ground can be found.

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

While I don't think the old UI in DW:U was bad from a functionality point of view it certainly was not good and outright bad from a readability perspective, especially on high resolution monitors.

The new UI seem very good from a functional perspective and that is certainly the most important (for me personally)... but... I have also seen allot of bad words being mentioning about how the UI looks from different forums with the new DW2 UI as well.

I also think that the developers should take some extra time to make it look just a bit more modern and improve the readability and use more contrast so the important things is highlighted and the text is easy to read.

I totally agree.

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: Latisrof

>I'm not even going to dive into the mess of DW:U's UI, there's plenty to be said and enough experience with the game would have you familiar with it's issues.

Wouldn't it be easy to provide at least one example? I have plenty of experience with the game, and of course it was slow going from one page to the next but that was obviously a technology problem. Like all and all it wasn't like the UI didn't work...

>What makes ES2's transparent UI work against any background, regardless of color, is a fine balance of opacity coupled alongside a considerable amount of blur.

Actually I disagree with this design choice as it's obviously overcompensating in it's attempt to display information clearly. In combination of a transparent background and thin info barriers it becomes difficult to understand when one slide ends and the other begins, especially with all of the background colors seeping through. For example this UI may seem clear at first but these thin white lines are going to become difficult to notice against the contrast of brighter more over powering colors. What the DW2 Dev's did I think is take the best of both worlds, coloring in the boxes of space between critical information with dark color's to split the information up so it can be seen.

I disagree and the ES2 GUI has been praised for being clean, easy to read and be one of the best in the genre. So there is a good reason to see what makes this interface successful. The majority of people seem to agree with this, it is simply a fact.

In general I don't thing the UI as presented is bad it just need to look a bit cleaner and less cluttered and the text need to be more readable, this is important. I also think is is important to replace as much text as possible with symbols or something else if possible, the more the better. Text is often the worse way to present information if a symbol/picture can do it to.
As an example.. on the event log... axe the time stamp in the log. We already know it shows in chronological order. Then add a symbol in front to show what type of event it is... this way we don't have to read the text to roughly know what it is. When we press the even we can be given the timestamp and more info on the event.

[sinbuster]

First off, big thank you to Miletkir for the Rebellion pic. I loved that game so damn much. The AI was pretty pedestrian though; I'd usually give it a 500-turn head start in ship-building.

Back to the topic at hand. I'd agree that the OP revision is a cleaner look, and much more readable, but as far as betas go I'm happy with the UI so far. Definitely could do for some brighter fonts and more crisp edges.

[Miletkir]

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I disagree and the ES2 GUI has been praised for being clean, easy to read and be one of the best in the genre. So there is a good reason to see what makes this interface successful. The majority of people seem to agree with this, it is simply a fact.

But I very disagree with your disagreement there [:'(] Although I guess if you're just pragmatic and not interested in immersion and character the UI of ES2 might be the right thing. It's a hard no for me. It's soul-less, like my bank's website.

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: Miletkir

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I disagree and the ES2 GUI has been praised for being clean, easy to read and be one of the best in the genre. So there is a good reason to see what makes this interface successful. The majority of people seem to agree with this, it is simply a fact.

But I very disagree with your disagreement there [:'(] Although I guess if you're just pragmatic and not interested in immersion and character the UI of ES2 might be the right thing. It's a hard no for me.

We all have different preferences... if you can get both a nice feeling and good readability at the same time that obviously is best. But I prefer a nice and clean interface that is easy to read over theme any day.

[Sild]

The way it looks now isn't bad. It could look better, yes. My primary suggestion for improving the look would be to make the text font clearer, sharper. Text and numbers. But subtle and unobtrusive. A vibrant or otherwise too embelished UI would only take away from everything that's going on. And there's always a lot of things going on in these games. As for functionality, i'll reserve judgement until i've played it, but i found DW:U UI to be perfectily functionable, if rather slow, so i expect this to be even better in that regard.

[Latisrof]

ORIGINAL: Sild

The way it looks now isn't bad. It could look better, yes. My primary suggestion for improving the look would be to make the text font clearer, sharper. Text and numbers. But subtle and unobtrusive. A vibrant or otherwise too embelished UI would only take away from everything that's going on. And there's always a lot of things going on in these games. As for functionality, i'll reserve judgement until i've played it, but i found DW:U UI to be perfectily functionable, if rather slow, so i expect this to be even better in that regard.

very much agreed

[Miletkir]

I think at this point it's also important to talk about the actual layout of the UI, but, no, I'm not trying to save a thread dead in the water [:D]

[Galaxy227]

It's nearly impossible to measure the functionality of DW2's interface to any meaningful extent until we can get our hands on the game ourselves. Otherwise, rest assured I'd have included it in this thread.

The purpose of this thread was more to emphasize the poor form of DW2's interface. Not its function. I had opened this thread with precisely that distinction, and my rendition of DW2's UI reflects as much; only the appearance changed, the layout remained the same.

[Latisrof]

You did bring up function multiple times in reference to DWU, and in the case of your criticism, form directly effect's the function of the interface itself.

[Galaxy227]

A bit of an abstract concept, but since you brought it up I'll take a jab at unraveling it all. First, consider function and form to be as dependent on each other as our mind and body, yet equally as distinct when contrasted; two different pieces of the same puzzle, if you will. My psychotic mind should restrict me from the luxuries of a working body. My unhealthy body should soon prevent me from ever utilizing my sharp mind. Each cannot perform without the other, yet clearly differ in the roles they fulfill.

It is okay for me to talk about my grievances pertaining to DW2's form without directly attacking its function. I only mentioned function to separate it from the topic of this thread: form. Although both are dependent on each other, they most certainly exist as individual concepts. This thread just so happens to address only one of them.

I'll refrain from dabbling with petty remarks in the future. Again, my purpose in this thread is only to discuss the appearance of DW2's interface.

[Latisrof]

Listen, I understand there is a difference between function and form, though I wouldn't go so far as to categorize them as discretely different. The design choices a developer will make won't just impact it's prettiness but it's convenience as well. When I was responding to your other post's my criticism's revolved around this subject, my point was to display that preferential treatment of "form" will have it's cost's, and the dev's know this as by using a little foresight - most of the improvement's on your UI could be found within the original DW2 UI.

Now DW2 UI isn't perfect it's kinda brutalisticly boxy in fact, but the fundamental's are all there, and just look at their design, it's just yours with a more clever use of transparency, balancing clearness with bold information separators. Anyhow, my own opinion is that functionality and form are interdependent, because the HUD isn't the mona lisa it's an information display.

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: Latisrof

Listen, I understand there is a difference between function and form, though I wouldn't go so far as to categorize them as discretely different. The design choices a developer will make won't just impact it's prettiness but it's convenience as well. When I was responding to your other post's my criticism's revolved around this subject, my point was to display that preferential treatment of "form" will have it's cost's, and the dev's know this as by using a little foresight - most of the improvement's on your UI could be found within the original DW2 UI.

Now DW2 UI isn't perfect it's kinda brutalisticly boxy in fact, but the fundamental's are all there, and just look at their design, it's just yours with a more clever use of transparency, balancing clearness with bold information separators. Anyhow, my own opinion is that functionality and form are interdependent, because the HUD isn't the mona lisa it's an information display.

You are just wrong... presentation and function is not the same in this context. You can keep the UI function in the same way but change the presentation to be radically different.

We are only discussing the presentation or as said its form.

It is true you need both function and form to get a fully workable interface in it's entirety.

You are just marking the words on what the word "function" mean for you and that don't really bring much to the discussion in my opinion.

[satoru]

It seems pretty disingenous to compare a highly compressed artifacted jpeg as the original. All you really did was change the contrast of the font and made it blindingly white which you have somehow taken to think is 'better'.

[Galaxy227]

I hear you out on the resolution of the image, satoru. It was difficult to get a clear screenshot over the stream, this was the best I could do.

I'll have to sternly disagree with you on your second remark however. I edited the photo over a period of six hours, and to say the least did a lot more than "change the contrast." Anything more than a quick glance would have you realize as much. It's okay to dislike my design, this thread is geared towards constructive criticism after all, but to outright call it lazy is a deplorable statement.

[Latisrof]

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

ORIGINAL: Latisrof

Listen, I understand there is a difference between function and form, though I wouldn't go so far as to categorize them as discretely different. The design choices a developer will make won't just impact it's prettiness but it's convenience as well. When I was responding to your other post's my criticism's revolved around this subject, my point was to display that preferential treatment of "form" will have it's cost's, and the dev's know this as by using a little foresight - most of the improvement's on your UI could be found within the original DW2 UI.

Now DW2 UI isn't perfect it's kinda brutalisticly boxy in fact, but the fundamental's are all there, and just look at their design, it's just yours with a more clever use of transparency, balancing clearness with bold information separators. Anyhow, my own opinion is that functionality and form are interdependent, because the HUD isn't the mona lisa it's an information display.

You are just wrong... presentation and function is not the same in this context. You can keep the UI function in the same way but change the presentation to be radically different.

We are only discussing the presentation or as said its form.

It is true you need both function and form to get a fully workable interface in it's entirety.

You are just marking the words on what the word "function" mean for you and that don't really bring much to the discussion in my opinion.

>You are just marking the words on what the word "function" mean for you and that don't really bring much to the discussion in my opinion.

This is probably where we are having our misunderstanding, because this is not true, there are some purely cosmetic design choices that will not effect functionality - but others will. (Example: Black Text on a Black background)

My point is simple, cosmetic design choices will directly effect the functionality of the intended outcome. ie. if you intend to make UI readable in a space game don't use black text on a transparent background. "because it won't be readable!"

Regarding the ES2 UI form, transparency is good! With moderation... you don't want to make thing's so transparent and thinly bordered, that it becomes difficult to separate information clearly. Boldness, and dark color's become useful in this case!

I hope my response cleared some things up.

[Whiskiz]

Nicely done starting with separating function and form.

The function of the new UI is great.

Some of the form looks nice and updated.

The rest and overall theme is a dull, somewhat blurry grey and black.

It pains me to admit, but should not take you by surprise, that Erik, Elliot, and the rest of the developers of the Distant Worlds series are not the most "interface-savvy."

I feel this too, that Eric god bless his soul haha is an oldschool game dev, having grown up with oldschool game design - hence the outdated black and white oldschool UI design.

No-one around him is specifically going to say no that looks terrible/dull/outdated - The in-house testers are going to be a veritable group of yes-men and other oldschool devs. No offence.

This is my fresh, relatively non repeated take on it. These are the issues as i see them and ideas to solve them:

1 - Is that Eric isn't keen on "vibrant" or "colorful" UI overall as it distracts from the gameplay, which is fair.

The thing is, is that it doesn't have to necessarily be bright and vibrant for the overall theme (unlike say nice and colorful special icons specifically, like the resources are currently done) I kind of previously misspoke also.

You can have a dark blue background, a dark brown background, dark green in fact any color - while still a dark background. But a grey and black background? Is that really what you want to outline all the amazing eye-candy in this awesome reimagining of Distant Worlds? Something straight out of a 1900s black and white TV show [:'(]

Those big menus you've opened on the side of the screen, haven't you opened those big boring grey menus to read the information on them? For them to not blend in? Can't you just close those menus when you're no longer wanting to focus on them?

2 - On the other hand it's fair to say the revised version above is a great attempt and all, makes for better readability but is definitely too bright, a bit overbearing and a bit soulless.

This, is where details like background texturing and color shading come into play.

You want to go without the detail and just have dark, unobtrusive but still updated UI? Then something like this:

https://imgur.com/smmtafS

Otherwise here's an example of still mostly dark, mature and unobtrusive - but with some color blending/shading for added depth:

https://imgur.com/PbGNlBo

I feel the buttons below that character portrait may be a bit bright and overall it can be made a little darker to taste - but this is still miles ahead of the current intention.

Notice how the window color - the overall theme is neither green nor black, but a mixture of both to provide an extra layer of depth - That extra layer of depth that has lovingly been given to the rest of the graphics but is missing from the UI!

That, is the real issue we have at the end of the day.

3 - Eric Doesn't want to do this and doesn't want to do that, because other people have done this and have done that and have done it in that color.

To that i'd say don't be a hipster about your project to the detriment of it [:'(]

Space games have been done before too. Ships having shields armor and hull. Collecting resources. Building stations on planets. Having colonies.

Everything has been done before. You're allowed to happen to have a similar design to something else - as long it isn't an exact carbon copy and was done your own way.

Use your own specific color, your own specific darkness/brightness, shading, background texturing (if any) - but don't use no color no shading no nothing and not do it altogether because others have. Others have also done nice 3D graphics too, should you then stick to DW1 2D pixelated ship graphics?

At the end of the day there are 2 ways to look at it:

Gee, some people are really fanatics and going overboard about this.

Gee, maybe getting the look of the UI right has a much bigger impact than we're aware of and is really not there currently.

EDIT: Would just like to add though that by now we've said our piece, there's no use hearing the same voices over and over on the subject, Eric said he's received the feedback and it'll be good to see what others think.

What's that saying you can lead a horse to water... [:'(]

Just remember that all we want is the game to be the best it can be and not have any one part let it down!

[Erik Rutins]

I've heard everyone's feedback on this and we'll be discussing it. Probably worth adding though that a UI artist/designer as well as our Art Director helped set the look and color choices for the UI. While it's true that I may be "old school", ultimately when it comes to choices between one dark and unobtrusive color or another, like much of art it tends to be somewhat subjective.

Regards,

- Erik

[SirHoraceHarkness]

Most of this debate will be moot if we can choose our own UI colors and maybe choice of font. Especially if its open for modding and a graphical UI.

[Sild]

I mean, PDX games UI is just PDX games UI.its the same thing adapted to every game. The exception would be CK3 where they changed thing up a bit and still got pretty hatsh feedback on the UI. And it's not even bad, was also transparent. It's supposed to relay a board game look and feel. Which is far from how DW works and feels like.

As for whether it's black background with gray contours or green background with blue contours that's just a very minor thing and can most likely be modded fairly easily. As long as the design is somewhat minimalistic and discreet, the rest is just flavor with no major implications, at least it should be as far as player or potential player decision making goes.