Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battle,AI)

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Canton is across the 'historical assault line' - I can see why Andymac thinks it might have been better to leave it out.

On the other hand, all my play now is as Allies in the ironman 3 universe. If I manage to get things sufficiently in order to be bale to contest Canton, it's a bonus.

The « Insanity » tier ? Yeah, every dirty trick is needed there. A bit too much science-fictionney for my taste, though.[:D]

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Canton is across the 'historical assault line' - I can see why Andymac thinks it might have been better to leave it out.

On the other hand, all my play now is as Allies in the ironman 3 universe. If I manage to get things sufficiently in order to be bale to contest Canton, it's a bonus.

The « Insanity » tier ? Yeah, every dirty trick is needed there. A bit too much science-fictionney for my taste, though.[:D]

That is the problem with these Ironman scens and another mod I found here (when people revealed what the Japanese get more in this one it seemed also quite far fetched, eg. more oil fields - well that is historical quite questionable, one can not just drill a hole in the ground and hurrrahhh the oil comes out. To be fair the Allies also get more ships in this mod I mean. Another thing was that tonnage of some of the ships were too low for the power they had, I mean the "phantasy" ones).

Scen2 however is historical posibble, some more stockpiles yes, the Shimakaze class build yes, more factories yes, 1 more army group yes..
if Japan had prepared better already in the early 30ties I guess this can be justified. But not phantasy major ships - cause the amount and size of shipyards is limited (slipways building is a huge enterprise if you want BBs and CVs there) and also not oilfields appearing from thin air...

I made the right decission this is war, Canton represents a sting in Allied sealanes in this game Japan did not use it, but normally they would put search and smaller attack planes there which forces the US shipping lines further south, leading to longer travels and for the player more clicks and waypoints fiddling etc.

[Alpha77]

Lots of knowledgeable people in this thread so I ask an OT question, just working on my PBM turn (which I always slow with not only cause lots of ship juggling, but I am also quite clueless about a strategy for Japan from mid 43 onwards, so I feel often "lost").

I noticed this PB it says endurance 6000 which is max but only 160 fuel which says is only 22% is this a display error or do I miss something? Thanks.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Lots of knowledgeable people in this thread so I ask an OT question, just working on my PBM turn (which I always slow with not only cause lots of ship juggling, but I am also quite clueless about a strategy for Japan from mid 43 onwards, so I feel often "lost").

I noticed this PB it says endurance 6000 which is max but only 160 fuel which says is only 22% is this a display error or do I miss something? Thanks.

The endurance in the ship screen is the designed maximum endurance. To see how far it will go with the 22% fuel it actually has you need to look at the TF screen.

[Ian R]

I think the answer may be 33.

(I am tempted to say 42 [:D], nonetheless.)

[HansBolter]

Interesting thread.

As someone who has been playing against the AI since the Uncommon Valor days I can say that it is rather easy to ambush the AI at Canton and I did so in many, many games until I finally realized that seeking to overwhelm the AI during the initial expansion quickly breaks the AI and results in a game that become so lopsided by the middle of '43 that it isn't worth playing.

As I stated, I have been playing this game engine almost exclusively for close on to twenty years now and AE since its release, and I only succeeded in getting a game worth playing past '43 last year!

It has taken years of effort to learn to restrain myself and allow the AI to have some success.

Moving up to Ironman grade scenarios also helps tremendously in providing a platform for a viable later war AI.

[BBfanboy]

Hans! Good to see you back. I had fears for your health.

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
The endurance in the ship screen is the designed maximum endurance. To see how far it will go with the 22% fuel it actually has you need to look at the TF screen.

Don´t want to "nickpick" (sp?) or question more knowledgeable gamers but you are mistaken. These numbers should update also on the ship screen not only in the TF one. Eg. see here another PB in the same fleet.




585 fuel which is 81% of the max gives us endurance 4909 (of 6000 max) = 122 hexes at cruise. So the 1st one can not be correct. [:'(] Only 22% fuel can not be 6000 endurance (=max)[:-]

[Alpha77]

So here results of the CV action, I guess many words are not needed, you can gain the info from the combat reports if not just ask...

First IJN CLs bombards Canton for minor damage, then the KB sends a weak strike:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 155,139

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34
B5N2 Kate x 58
D3A1 Val x 56

Allied aircraft
F4F-3A Wildcat x 22
F4F-3 Wildcat x 45
F4F-4 Wildcat x 49

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 20 destroyed, 3 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 11 destroyed, 13 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3A Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Hornet
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 1
CV Enterprise
CV Yorktown, Torpedo hits 1
DD Dunlap
DD Craven
CV Lexington
DD Henley
DD Walke

Morning Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 153,143

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 74

Allied aircraft
F2A-3 Buffalo x 15
F4F-3 Wildcat x 40
SB2U-3 Vindicator x 17
SBD-2 Dauntless x 34
SBD-1 Dauntless x 17
SBD-3 Dauntless x 143
TBD-1 Devastator x 56

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F2A-3 Buffalo: 5 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 13 destroyed
SBD-2 Dauntless: 3 damaged
SBD-1 Dauntless: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 3 destroyed, 6 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 2 destroyed by flak
TBD-1 Devastator: 1 destroyed
TBD-1 Devastator: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 7, on fire
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 2, on fire
BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 1
DD Sawakaze, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Kuroshio
CA Kinugasa, Bomb hits 1
CL Nagara
CA Nachi, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Natsushio
CL Tatsuta, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Oyashio
DD Yugiri
DD Hokaze
DD Hatsukaze

Morning Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 155,139

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 36 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 13

Allied aircraft
F4F-3A Wildcat x 15
F4F-3 Wildcat x 35
F4F-4 Wildcat x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 7 destroyed

No Allied losses

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 155,139

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
B5N2 Kate x 22
D3A1 Val x 52

Allied aircraft
F4F-3A Wildcat x 21
F4F-3 Wildcat x 33
F4F-4 Wildcat x 37

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 8 destroyed, 1 damaged
D3A1 Val: 19 destroyed, 5 damaged
D3A1 Val: 3 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Yorktown
CV Lexington
CV Enterprise
CV Saratoga
DD Selfridge
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 153,143

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 21 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 17

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 7
SBD-2 Dauntless x 17
SBD-3 Dauntless x 89
TBD-1 Devastator x 55

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 2 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 3 destroyed, 20 damaged
TBD-1 Devastator: 4 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku, on fire
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Arashi, Bomb hits 1
DD Yugumo, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CA Nachi, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
DD Hatsukaze
DD Oyashio, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Yugiri
DD Kuroshio, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Kaga, on fire, heavy damage

[Alpha77]

Next day:

One (1) Nav guards lands at Canton and is crushed then some "mop up" by the Americans:

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 151,142

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 37 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 2

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 24
SBD-3 Dauntless x 49

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Nokaze
CL Tatsuta, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 153,143

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 4,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Allied aircraft
SBD-3 Dauntless x 33
TBD-1 Devastator x 13

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 8 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CL Tenryu
xAK Shanghai Maru, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
DD Tatsukaze

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 151,142

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 2

Allied aircraft
SBD-3 Dauntless x 18

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Nokaze
CL Tatsuta, and is sunk
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Allies lost 2 ships, both cargos hit by bombs from search planes...All US CVs still operable..on day 3 Kaga hit by 3 more bombs plus 1 CL, 1 DD, 1 AK from landing force sunk.

IJN CVs moved in the base hex (see pic), asfaik this should have impeded their ops as well on day 1 bad weather over their fleet helped the US. Zeros were first good on CAP but suddenly began to leave the battle from all kinds of fails so strike planes did not suffer so much.

[Ian R]

3 US Torpedo hits in all of that, and the TBD's weren't even taking particularly heavy losses. Were you getting "hit, but no explosion" messages on the animation screen?

[HansBolter]

Congratulations.

You destroyed the KB in early 42 and now your game will become so lopsided in your favor by mid '43 it won't be worth playing on.

You took advantage of a great opportunity to get your feet wet in CV combat and learn its ropes.

Start over now.

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

You destroyed the KB in early 42 and now your game will become so lopsided in your favor by mid '43 it won't be worth playing on.

You’re optimistic.[;)]

[Macclan5]

I do not think - in my limited experience - I have ever seen the IJN concentrate that many Carriers following Pearl Harbor.

None the less a tremendous victory.

In all likelihood 6 fleet carriers of the IJN gone if I counted correctly?

Observations on the AI

I appreciate Hans observations - they are fair and somewhat valid. Others may indeed support. He is a long tenured and experienced player.

With the massive destruction of the IJN Fleet Carriers in April 42 you will have significant Naval autonomy for the coming years. You will be able to sail / strike / support landings with minimal risk compared to a game where the IJN carriers are still in play and location uncertain. Naval mobility and local air supremacy - not superiority is assured much earlier than real life.

Now is that terrible ? Is this a fault ? Not really in my opinion.

In real life of course - after the loss of Lexington / Yorktown - and after the battle of Midway - the USN essentially restored Carrier Parity as opposed to possessing a significant advantage which you will have. This battle is more hurtful than history - real life - but not necessarily game breaking to the point of no enjoyment; however that depends on your own expectations of the game ! Hans and other veterans are clearly looking for strategic / tactical challenges 'beyond' simple comparisons to history


--

In real life the USN production of 14 Essex class carriers which started arriving in 43 combined with innumerable jeep carriers (Sagamons et al) and other ships ; the production of arms ; and the relative non-parity of industrial output makes even your own scenario simply an advanced cause of what real life was.

Others might disagree but in essence Japan started a strategic war without the industrial output. population base, and resource security to ever win. Nor did they ever attempt to integrate conquered territory into any sort of supportive super regional economy to offset Allied - US - advantages

I suppose there was always the inescapable chances in war that could have caused greater setbacks for the US. Leyte could have been worse for example in real life.

You have the additional advantage of perfect historical hindsight i.e. knowing which bases / landing spots are going to be increasingly difficult.

However the enjoyment of your game will largely depend on how you define success. Landing / Conquering home islands in late 44 ? I guess its up to you to see.

[RangerJoe]

Greyjoy invaded the Home Islands in 1944 against a human.[&o]

But what took you so long to sink this many carriers? [&:] I sank a bunch in January and February of 1942 . . . [8D]

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: Macclan5


In real life the USN production of 14 Essex class carriers

More than 14...

32 Essexs authorised

6 canceled before being laid down

26 built or commenced

2 scrapped on the slips when canceled at war's end

7 commissioned post war

17 commissioned during the war.

[Dan1977]

RE: Historical vs. Playability/Enjoy ability: Besides the hindsight we possess & the fairly decent real time knowledge of the game's operations, there is another factor. As a single commander of all forces of all nationalities, it is a great advantage and clearly highlights the bonus of a "Unified Command" structure. Of course, during the real war that was not possible across the entirety of Asia/Pacific/CONUS. The issue is even more pronounced with the Japanese, where the Army & Navy rarely cooperated. I guess, to increase the game's difficulty & realism you would have to have separate commanders in the various Theaters. The Allied players would need to find a really arrogant a** (but competent) person to play the role of Commander SWPA.[:D]

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Dan1977

RE: Historical vs. Playability/Enjoy ability: Besides the hindsight we possess & the fairly decent real time knowledge of the game's operations, there is another factor. As a single commander of all forces of all nationalities, it is a great advantage and clearly highlights the bonus of a "Unified Command" structure. Of course, during the real war that was not possible across the entirety of Asia/Pacific/CONUS. The issue is even more pronounced with the Japanese, where the Army & Navy rarely cooperated. I guess, to increase the game's difficulty & realism you would have to have separate commanders in the various Theaters. The Allied players would need to find a really arrogant a** (but competent) person to play the role of Commander SWPA.[:D]

It is hard to be humble when you are good.

He did try to keep Allied casualties to a minimum in a very difficult theatre of operations.

[Dan1977]

RangerJoe, Sounds like you can handle the SWPA OK.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Dan1977

RangerJoe, Sounds like you can handle the SWPA OK.

Not really. I have more of a Halsey/Patton attitude and temperament.