Yet another balance thread (1.11)

[IIo4Tu]

there are the following ideas for balancing:

To strengthen China:
1. introduce DE, which for a certain amount of MPP will join Burma to the allies to activate the Burma road.
2. to untie aid from the USSR from the presence of Chungking in China.

To strengthen France, it is possible to introduce a large moral debuff (for example by 5 percent) for Germany if it attacks the Benelux before the onset of 1940.

[Marcinos1985]

Lots and lots of valuable ideas here, great stuff!

China is easier to address- tie the US embargo to conditions rather than a fixed historical date (keep the option though for non PBEM play). The embargo should be triggered by Japanese advances in China as it was historically. Would also like to see a US mobilization boost for Japanese capture of Chungking and Sian- not enough to get them in the war but to give the US more resources.

That's a great idea. Though I think about implementation - does tying it to certain locations is good solution or could it be 'gamed' somehow.

I think the reason Russia struggles is that scorched earth doesn't work and the weak impact of the first winter on Axis forces.

Supply is often mentioned in this thread as a point of interest in USSR. One aspect woth to mention is that Germans fight really wel in bad supply - so good commanders and morale they have. What is more, unless supply is zero, their tanks can leapfrog 5 hexes. And how many hexes from border to Moscow are there, 15?

And where are the Siberians? Well...they are already lost or in the defending line. No massive winter counter offensive ever develops in WAW during the first winter.

That's true, maybe because Siberians in this game - comparing to WiE - are very modest force. In the beginning you get a tank, cavalry, SF and 3 corps, then HQ, 2 armies, HT and 2 planes join. In WiE you have 2 HQ's, 3 corps, 3 armies, 2 shock armies, 2 tanks, 2 planes. I'd take WiE troops. [:)]

I think it's pretty balanced ATM.

I have a feeling we are really not that far from there. Some tweaks here and there and it's getting even. But we are still not there yet.

As said above, I agree that between two good players the Axis wins. Russia needs more strategic reserves in the production line. When you read about the East front, it is mind blowing how the Soviets were able to raise time and again whole new Armies and Army Groups. At least 2-3 more Armies should be arriving November 1941 as reinforcements with some more artillery.
As pointed out before in WiE and in this forum, the scorched earth is not correctly addressed. I agree with LoneRunner that no Russian towns or cities should be captured at more than two supply. I also agree that during the first Russian winter, Axis forces should be hit with much higher losses (At least 1-3 points per unit) due to being unprepared for the cold. The Germans lost many hundreds of thousands of vehicles, more than half, of the original invading fleet during this winter. The USSR should get more MPPs via Persia (100-150 MMPs) to help survive the country through 1942.

Very fair. I always wondered why is USSR que almost empty past 1941. They were raising massive armies for all 1942, this is not represented now. Of course one can't go havoc on this, but for me it seems USSR can never achieve at least unit parity with GER, unless it's already winning big time. German army is quite big and refuses to die.

As Jackmck points out, China should also be reconsidered. Japan is unstoppable and China could be destroyed in 1942 as I recently discovered in my game against Cpuncher.

Exactly, in high level game result is always one, it matters only if you could preoccupy Japan long enough, but with optimized plan and with US help cut off Chinqing is gone around 06.1941 and rest is just mop up.

Be interested to see an AAR between two of the top players to better understand balance issues.

There was AAR between Taifun and smckechnie recently. In fact, it somehow inspired me to write this post. We may ofc debate whether defense of USSR was optimal, but pressure from GER was so big that it made me feel scared.

Currently they can yank all of their elite units off of the front line to buff & tech them up, without any real concerns about any Russian counteroffensive (like the one that actually took place).

Exactly this. IRL GER was severely depleted after 1941. In SC currently, it is 1942 which is scary for USSR, 1941 is usually ok somewhat, but then execution comes, in form of 8 lvl 3 tanks. All shiny and with crazy stats [:)]

Yes, 8 tanks is a potent force, especially with tech advantage over Russia. In the mean time, at the end of 1941 USSR will probably have 4 (2 of them heavy) plus 2 LT's. Where is the ocean of T34's?[:)]

I wonder what is Devs opinion on this matter (balance, not GER tanks [:)]). Are decisions to tweak some things made from general population (where I believe Allies win 60-70% of the time), or does competitive play influence game direction somehow.

[Marcinos1985]

ORIGINAL: IIo4Tu

there are the following ideas for balancing:

To strengthen China:
1. introduce DE, which for a certain amount of MPP will join Burma to the allies to activate the Burma road.
2. to untie aid from the USSR from the presence of Chungking in China.

To strengthen France, it is possible to introduce a large moral debuff (for example by 5 percent) for Germany if it attacks the Benelux before the onset of 1940.

This morale debuff was discussed sometime, don't remember conclusion.

@IIo4Tu What do you think of USSR?

[Taifun]

Another idea. The purchase value of the Soviet Infantry Corps could be lowered to 75 MPPs, this at least could provide more troops for the Soviets (as in WiE). At least this could balance and show somehow the big human pool that the Soviets deployed in WWII.

[IIo4Tu]

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

ORIGINAL: IIo4Tu

there are the following ideas for balancing:

To strengthen China:
1. introduce DE, which for a certain amount of MPP will join Burma to the allies to activate the Burma road.
2. to untie aid from the USSR from the presence of Chungking in China.

To strengthen France, it is possible to introduce a large moral debuff (for example by 5 percent) for Germany if it attacks the Benelux before the onset of 1940.

This morale debuff was discussed sometime, don't remember conclusion.

@IIo4Tu What do you think of USSR?

about the USSR, need a moral debuff for Germany when attacking earlier than June 1941, try to add DE to the formation of additional units from Siberia in November, but most importantly, make it not profitable for Japan to attack the USSR before the end of the conquest of China (need some kind of colossal debuff), at the same time need to slow down the movement of Japan in China, because the capture of China in 1942 is nonsense.
Otherwise, I would not touch the USSR again until the statistics on these edits are collected.

And once again, if we want the game to roughly correspond to key dates and events, we need to introduce appropriate debuffs for the offending side, which will model the unwillingness of this side to take these actions, otherwise we need to do a more complex rebalancing of everything.
In any case, with an equal skill of the playing parties, the axis has many advantages in its favor.

[LoneRunner]

ORIGINAL: Taifun

Another idea. The purchase value of the Soviet Infantry Corps could be lowered to 75 MPPs, this at least could provide more troops for the Soviets (as in WiE). At least this could balance and show somehow the big human pool that the Soviets deployed in WWII.

Good point Taifun. The Soviets weren't just deploying thousands of infantry, they were mass producing thousands of T-34s.

Probably the easiest method of implementing Soviet mass production is to fix the cost of Soviet research. At 175 MPPs per step, Soviet research for Production Technology and Industrial Technology are overpriced. And as a result the Soviets can't afford to improve their production. Reduce that cost to 75 and Soviet investment in research that will beef up their production from 42 on, which is historically accurate.

Also, the Soviets should be able to produce a cheap conscript unit that they can throw against the German lines. The unit would have an okay attack but zero staying power. That way it could be used for counterattacks but not for a defensive line.

If we are doing all this for Russia, we need to provide some assistance to German/Italy. One thing we could do is stop allowing long distance invasions. Using naval cruise I can invade Italy from mid-Atlantic. That's crazy. A transport should not be able to use naval cruise to invade.

[EarlyDoors]

We’ve seen the stats, the Allies win more than the Axis

But I agree that an experienced Axis player can cut off choke points and come out victorious

Primarily the UK -> USSR Arctic convoy and the Burma Road

I like the idea of a US oil embargo based upon Japanese progress in China but I think the China solution lies in either a reduction of Japanese supply similar to the non cooperation supply rules the US receive in USSR ( towns maximum of 3) or cheaper Chinese army / corps. After all this is a country that drowned 2 million of its own citizens to slow the Japanese advance.

The USSR and gameplay would benefit from additional convoy routes to the south. I understand the current game engine limitation which could be solved by
Eastern USA / Western USA
Vladivostok style DE into ? Basra ? which deducts mpp per turn from US and allocates to USSR
periodic unit spawn in Persia / Astrakhan

[Yvan1326]

hello,
an example for DE to US supply USSR.
You can imagine the same for Uk to USSR.
axis can block DE!

{
#NAME= DE 386 - US: Send Supplies to the USSR via Persia (AI - 100% Yes)
#POPUP=
#MESSAGE= <<TAG_385>>
#IMAGE=
#SOUND=
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 0
#AI= 0
#LEVEL= 0
; Set global variable condition to always trigger (dummy value)
#GV= 1[1,100]
#LINK= 0[0]
#COUNTRY_ID= 115
#TRIGGER= 100
#DISPLAY_ORDER= 0
; Set decision value
#DECISION= 386
#MPP_UPDOWN= 0
#MPP_TURNS= 0
#MPP_TEXT=
#NOTES= <<TAG_386>>
#NOTES_POSITION=
; Set AI acceptance % (AI will accept 100% of the time)
#AI_RESPONSE= 100
#AI_RESPONSE_POPUP=
#DATE= 1939/09/01
#TEXT_RGB= 0,0,0
#SHADOW_RGB= 0,0,0
; Teheran is in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,59 [2]
; Stalingrad is in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 135,42 [2]
;Set National Morale Trigger (dummy value)
#NATIONAL_MORALE_TRIGGER= 0 [0]
; US politically aligned with Allies and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 115 [2] [100] [0]
; USSR politically aligned with Allies and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 116 [2] [100] [0]
; Germany politically aligned with Axis and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 45 [1] [100] [0]
; Persia politically aligned with Allied and not mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 82 [2] [100] [0]
; Dummy condition position (always satisfied)
#CONDITION_POSITION= 0,0 [0,0] [0,0] [0] [0]
}

{
#NAME= DE 387 - US: Send Supplies to the USSR via Persia (Countenance operation) (AI - 100% Yes)
#POPUP=
#MESSAGE= <<TAG_385>>
#IMAGE=
#SOUND=
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 0
#AI= 0
#LEVEL= 0
; Set global variable condition to always trigger (dummy value)
#GV= 1[1,100]
#LINK= 403[1]
#COUNTRY_ID= 115
#TRIGGER= 100
#DISPLAY_ORDER= 0
; Set decision value
#DECISION= 387
#MPP_UPDOWN= 0
#MPP_TURNS= 0
#MPP_TEXT=
#NOTES= <<TAG_386>>
#NOTES_POSITION=
; Set AI acceptance % (AI will accept 100% of the time)
#AI_RESPONSE= 100
#AI_RESPONSE_POPUP=
#DATE= 1939/09/01
#TEXT_RGB= 0,0,0
#SHADOW_RGB= 0,0,0
; Téhéran is in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,59 [2]
; Stalingrad is in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 135,42 [2]
;Set National Morale Trigger (dummy value)
#NATIONAL_MORALE_TRIGGER= 0 [0]
; US politically aligned with Allies and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 115 [2] [100] [0]
; USSR politically aligned with Allies and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 116 [2] [100] [0]
; Germany politically aligned with Axis and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 45 [1] [100] [0]
; Dummy condition position (always satisfied)
#CONDITION_POSITION= 0,0 [0,0] [0,0] [0] [0]
}

{
#NAME= DE 388 - US: Dummy Event for the US's Convoy to the USSR via Persia (AI - 100% Yes)
#POPUP=
#MESSAGE=
#IMAGE=
#SOUND=
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 2
#AI= 0
#LEVEL= 0
; Set global variable condition to always trigger (dummy value)
#GV= 1[1,100]
#LINK= 386[1]
#COUNTRY_ID= 116
#TRIGGER= 100
#DISPLAY_ORDER= 0
; Set decision value
#DECISION= 388
#MPP_UPDOWN= 40
#MPP_TURNS= 1
#MPP_TEXT= <<TAG_384>>
#NOTES=
#NOTES_POSITION=
; Set AI acceptance % (AI will accept 100% of the time)
#AI_RESPONSE= 100
#AI_RESPONSE_POPUP=
#DATE= 1939/09/01
#TEXT_RGB= 0,0,0
#SHADOW_RGB= 0,0,0
; Teheran is in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,59 [2]
; Stalingrad is in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 135,42 [2]
; Railway Bushehr to teheran are in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 141,67 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 142,67 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 142,66 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 142,65 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 141,65 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 141,64 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,64 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,63 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,62 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 139,61 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 139,60 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 139,59 [2]
;Set National Morale Trigger (dummy value)
#NATIONAL_MORALE_TRIGGER= 0 [0]
; US politically aligned with Allies and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 115 [2] [100] [0]
; USSR politically aligned with Allies and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 116 [2] [100] [0]
; Germany politically aligned with Axis and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 45 [1] [100] [0]
; No Axis Naval Units outside Bushehr Port
#CONDITION_POSITION= 140,68 [1,1] [0,0] [1] [0]
}

{
#NAME= DE 389 - US: Dummy Event for the US's Convoy to the USSR via Persia (AI - 100% Yes)
#POPUP=
#MESSAGE=
#IMAGE=
#SOUND=
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 2
#AI= 0
#LEVEL= 0
; Set global variable condition to always trigger (dummy value)
#GV= 1[1,100]
#LINK= 386[1]
#COUNTRY_ID= 115
#TRIGGER= 100
#DISPLAY_ORDER= 0
; Set decision value
#DECISION= 389
#MPP_UPDOWN= -40
#MPP_TURNS= 1
#MPP_TEXT= <<TAG_384>>
#NOTES=
#NOTES_POSITION=
; Set AI acceptance % (AI will accept 100% of the time)
#AI_RESPONSE= 100
#AI_RESPONSE_POPUP=
#DATE= 1939/09/01
#TEXT_RGB= 0,0,0
#SHADOW_RGB= 0,0,0
; Teheran is in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,59 [2]
; Stalingrad is in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 135,42 [2]
; Railway Bushehr to teheran are in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 141,67 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 142,67 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 142,66 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 142,65 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 141,65 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 141,64 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,64 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,63 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,62 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 139,61 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 139,60 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 139,59 [2]
;Set National Morale Trigger (dummy value)
#NATIONAL_MORALE_TRIGGER= 0 [0]
; US politically aligned with Allies and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 115 [2] [100] [0]
; USSR politically aligned with Allies and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 116 [2] [100] [0]
; Germany politically aligned with Axis and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 45 [1] [100] [0]
; No Axis Naval Units outside Bushehr Port
#CONDITION_POSITION= 140,68 [1,1] [0,0] [1] [0]
}

;after Countenance Operation
{
#NAME= DE 390 - US: Dummy Event for the US's Convoy to the USSR via Persia (AI - 100% Yes)
#POPUP=
#MESSAGE=
#IMAGE=
#SOUND=
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 2
#AI= 0
#LEVEL= 0
; Set global variable condition to always trigger (dummy value)
#GV= 1[1,100]
#LINK= 387[1]
#COUNTRY_ID= 116
#TRIGGER= 100
#DISPLAY_ORDER= 0
; Set decision value
#DECISION= 390
#MPP_UPDOWN= 40
#MPP_TURNS= 1
#MPP_TEXT= <<TAG_384>>
#NOTES=
#NOTES_POSITION=
; Set AI acceptance % (AI will accept 100% of the time)
#AI_RESPONSE= 100
#AI_RESPONSE_POPUP=
#DATE= 1939/09/01
#TEXT_RGB= 0,0,0
#SHADOW_RGB= 0,0,0
; Teheran is in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,59 [2]
; Stalingrad is in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 135,42 [2]
; Railway Bushehr to teheran are in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 141,67 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 142,67 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 142,66 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 142,65 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 141,65 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 141,64 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,64 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,63 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,62 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 139,61 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 139,60 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 139,59 [2]
;Set National Morale Trigger (dummy value)
#NATIONAL_MORALE_TRIGGER= 0 [0]
; US politically aligned with Allies and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 115 [2] [100] [0]
; USSR politically aligned with Allies and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 116 [2] [100] [0]
; Germany politically aligned with Axis and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 45 [1] [100] [0]
; No Axis Naval Units outside Bushehr Port
#CONDITION_POSITION= 140,68 [1,1] [0,0] [1] [0]
}

;after Countenance Operation
{
#NAME= DE 391 - US: Dummy Event for the US's Convoy to the USSR via Persia (AI - 100% Yes)
#POPUP=
#MESSAGE=
#IMAGE=
#SOUND=
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 2
#AI= 0
#LEVEL= 0
; Set global variable condition to always trigger (dummy value)
#GV= 1[1,100]
#LINK= 387[1]
#COUNTRY_ID= 115
#TRIGGER= 100
#DISPLAY_ORDER= 0
; Set decision value
#DECISION= 391
#MPP_UPDOWN= -40
#MPP_TURNS= 1
#MPP_TEXT= <<TAG_384>>
#NOTES=
#NOTES_POSITION=
; Set AI acceptance % (AI will accept 100% of the time)
#AI_RESPONSE= 100
#AI_RESPONSE_POPUP=
#DATE= 1939/09/01
#TEXT_RGB= 0,0,0
#SHADOW_RGB= 0,0,0
; Teheran is in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,59 [2]
; Stalingrad is in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 135,42 [2]
; Railway Bushehr to teheran are in Allied hands
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 141,67 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 142,67 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 142,66 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 142,65 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 141,65 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 141,64 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,64 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,63 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 140,62 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 139,61 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 139,60 [2]
#ALIGNMENT_POSITION= 139,59 [2]
;Set National Morale Trigger (dummy value)
#NATIONAL_MORALE_TRIGGER= 0 [0]
; US politically aligned with Allies and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 115 [2] [100] [0]
; USSR politically aligned with Allies and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 116 [2] [100] [0]
; Germany politically aligned with Axis and fully mobilized
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 45 [1] [100] [0]
; No Axis Naval Units outside Bushehr Port
#CONDITION_POSITION= 140,68 [1,1] [0,0] [1] [0]
}

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Another idea would be to have a massive negative supply event against the Axis each December, lessening each subsequent winter (right now the "Russian Winter" event only takes off 1 health point from each Axis unit). As it is as soon as the snows & blizzards arrive the entire Axis army goes on a carefree skiing holiday for 3 months (since the current game settings give substantial penalties to the offense in winter, on both sides). Currently they can yank all of their elite units off of the front line to buff & tech them up, without any real concerns about any Russian counteroffensive (like the one that actually took place).

I'm not necessarily against increasing the impact of the winter event, but just to clarify that the scripts are currently set to randomly inflict between 0 and 2 strength point losses per unit, as well as a unit morale penalty of 40-75%.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: LoneRunner

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985


Wait what?

yup, guess its this one

- Added DE 416 and DE 645 from War in Europe to provide the USSR and Germany with dedicated anti-tank units.

looks to be balanced

Are DE 416 and DE 645 new to WAW, added in the last patch?

I checked the strategy guide and USSR DEs stop at 415, Germany DEs stop at 636. So I'm missing a bunch of DEs. How would I see all the current DEs?

Thanks for mentioning this, as by doing so we've discovered a technical issue in that if you open the Strategy Guide from the launcher, it opens an obsolete version (this should be fixed in the next patch).

However, launching it from within the game will open the up to date version, which does include the new Anti-Tank Decisions.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: IIo4Tu

there are the following ideas for balancing:

To strengthen China:
1. introduce DE, which for a certain amount of MPP will join Burma to the allies to activate the Burma road.
2. to untie aid from the USSR from the presence of Chungking in China.

To strengthen France, it is possible to introduce a large moral debuff (for example by 5 percent) for Germany if it attacks the Benelux before the onset of 1940.

Hi

On point 2, do you mean to increase the trigger points for the following?

DE 408 - USSR: Send Supplies to China?
Event fires: If 2 Japanese units are within 3 hexes of Chungking, Moscow is in Allied hands and China has not surrendered.
Cost of accepting: 200 MPPs at 100 MPPs a turn for 2 turns.
Yes: China will receive 200 MPPs at 100 MPPs a turn for 2 turns, and its National Morale will be boosted by
3,000 points.
No: Nothing.


In terms of an early attack on France, some changes were introduced into the latest patch for WWII: War in Europe, but I held back introducing them into this game, pending feedback on whether that did give France some more resilience or not.

These changes were:

- France's starting MPPs increased from 75 to 90.
- French 2nd Army at Verdun and 9th Army at 155,82 increased in strength from 5 to 8, 1st Army at 153,81 increased in strength from 5 to 6, XLIV Corps at Epinal; IX Corps at Belfort increased in strength from 5 to 6. This is the equivalent of 100 MPPs worth of reinforcements.
- Resource scripts added for Algiers; Casablanca; Rabat; Tunis, Bordeaux and Marseille so that they start the war at zero strength, increasing by 1 per Allied turn.

If introduced here the changes would follow the same path, to increase their starting strength while reducing France's income slightly for the first months of the game, i.e. so that France isn't noticeable stronger in May 1940 than it would have been prior to the changes.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

Lots and lots of valuable ideas here, great stuff!

Agreed, you've started a great thread here and I'm busy taking notes of changes to consider! [:)]

[IIo4Tu]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Hi

On point 2, do you mean to increase the trigger points for the following?

DE 408 - USSR: Send Supplies to China?
Event fires: If 2 Japanese units are within 3 hexes of Chungking, Moscow is in Allied hands and China has not surrendered.
Cost of accepting: 200 MPPs at 100 MPPs a turn for 2 turns.
Yes: China will receive 200 MPPs at 100 MPPs a turn for 2 turns, and its National Morale will be boosted by
3,000 points.
No: Nothing.

I meant that if Japan captures Chungking before the USSR enters the war, then help from the USSR is not sent when it enters the war... and this is somehow not right at all

[BillRunacre]

Thanks for explaining, that makes sense and I'll make a change here.

[Alcibiades73]

Just a general comment on balancing from my years of gaming, including as a beta tester in turn-based strategy/tactics games (obviously I cannot say much in substance about balance in this particular game, because I have only played Axis and only up to early 1943):

Contrary to the wishes of most of the posters on this thread, I am going to stress that there is a great danger in niche games being balanced toward both elite, hardcore players and multi-player (MP) experience. The simple reason is that the vast majority of gamers will not play a particular game long enough to become "expert" players - nor will they explore MP game modes. Hence, tuning games toward both expert and MP segment of the player base may alienate the majority of the customer base. Yet, the majority of the most vocal posters and especially beta testers in many turn-based strategy/tactics games also tend to be hardcore and MP players. So the devs have a tendency to only get the feedback from a very small segment of the player base and implement changes that will only cater to that minority. I have seen many games, for instance, where the game was virtually unplayable for casuals at release, because the beta testers were in a race to ratchet up the difficulty in an e-peen measuring contest, and the devs obliged, because they had no other feedback source.

Now, I am not saying this dynamic exists in this particular game; I am just warning against it, as I have observed it in the generality of turn-based strategy/tactics games. (In fact, this dynamic may apply less in this game in particular, because customers of complex, large scale historical simulations tend to not to be casuals anyways.) Still, I worry about some of the proposals here. For instance, making the Russian Winter even harsher? Perhaps it is necessary in multi-player games, though the won-loss stats posted does not bear this out. But consider it from the perspective of new players like myself. I felt attacking Russia was a soul-deflating, Sisyphean slog, with an unending sea of troops being "raised" up by the Russians - more bodies continuously taking up space for their brethren. (This is not a zombie game, dammit!) Imagine the surprise and the devastation I felt when the Russian Winter hit. Most of my units were at 4-6 Strength from the endless fighting and low supply the turn before it hit. Imagine the panic when I found those troops at 2-4 Strength? And you want to make this random, arguably unfair, (Russians also died of cold, too!) mechanic harder for new players? I can imagine some new players quitting in frustration when a buffed Russian Winter event brings your unit strength to 0, rather than 2-4.

I implore you to keep in mind the little guys!

[Alcibiades73]

On the more specific thread topic at hand: I am glad someone brought it up, because I, too, am keen to know and was in fact about to start a thread on it!

My experience is obviously limited, but I did find the Axis start rather difficult - though I would not be surprised if this were not mainly due to my being a new, inexperienced player. (For instance, I wasted too much time on China as Japan, and thus I did not really implement a "Southern" strategy at all - which meant that Japan was not going to be viable economically in the long-run.) In particular, I found Italy's position unsustainable; its economic base is so weak that I found myself unable to either research or produce new units at all. Instead, all I could do was just replace unit losses. Overall, the Italian play seems to be basically sitting there, waiting for the eventual Allied invasion and subsequent defeat. How are you supposed to play these guys with such a feeble military and weak industrial base? I suppose the Italian plight in this game is meant to mimic their historical plight, but I feel this game still exaggerates the Italian weakness at the start of World War II. Besides, here may be a case where fidelity to history may not be the best idea for game balance?

I think the other contributing factor to my Axis play were mostly newbie mistakes. As I have said, I just focused entirely on China as Japan and did not create the "Co-prosperity Sphere" necessary to fuel my war machine for the long-haul. Also, I am more of an RPG and small squad tactics player - rather than a war gamer - and I think I played too cautiously, only attacking when no casualties can be foreseen. So my time table likely got messed up. Finally, no doubt my ignorance of some key mechanics contributed to my bad showing. For instance, I did not realize the cheaper amphibious assault ships will take forever to get anywhere; so a lot of them were needlessly sacrificed at sea.

Anyways, I am going to re-run as Axis based on the lesson I have learned, and then try an Allied start thereafter.

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

We’ve seen the stats, the Allies win more than the Axis

But I agree that an experienced Axis player can cut off choke points and come out victorious

Primarily the UK -> USSR Arctic convoy and the Burma Road

Hmm, I did not engage in economic warfare at all. Specifically, I was saving all the U boats for a cataclysmic naval battle against the combined US-UK fleet. But can the potential loss of a U boat justify a little bit of MPPs shaved, when the Allies have a such a massive economy? I did not get the sense that this is a reasonable trade-off, at least against the AI.

Also, how do you "cut off" the Burma Road? Just occupy an area that it goes through? It seems pretty difficult to get down that far until late in the game though.

[Marcinos1985]

These changes were:

- France's starting MPPs increased from 75 to 90.
- French 2nd Army at Verdun and 9th Army at 155,82 increased in strength from 5 to 8, 1st Army at 153,81 increased in strength from 5 to 6, XLIV Corps at Epinal; IX Corps at Belfort increased in strength from 5 to 6. This is the equivalent of 100 MPPs worth of reinforcements.
- Resource scripts added for Algiers; Casablanca; Rabat; Tunis, Bordeaux and Marseille so that they start the war at zero strength, increasing by 1 per Allied turn.

If introduced here the changes would follow the same path, to increase their starting strength while reducing France's income slightly for the first months of the game, i.e. so that France isn't noticeable stronger in May 1940 than it would have been prior to the changes.

These changes seem to be nice. I wonder if there was a feedback from WiE players, did it help much? For me it seems that making 2 armies close to Luxembourg stronger would make France less suspectible to rushes.
In case of France, at least for me, I'd like to see attacking Low Countries very early - like 11 or 12.1939 - to come with sort of tradeoff. People on the forums probably know better, but I assume that GER wasn't that ready to strike Holland and Belgium that early, Polish campaign wasn't that easy for them and they had to refit for some time. Just food for thought.

When it comes to China, this idea with Oil Embargo tied to Japanese advance looks really nice, I wonder how hard to implement is that. For me from gaming perspective a situation like this would be optimal - Japan can break China's back so much, that Nationalists wouldn't be able to come back, even with IW2 in stock. But delving so deep into the country is just a very optmistic idea. So chinese front would be in action for longer and could put a strain on Japan, but only if they went too wild elsewhere. There is another issue with JP - check below.

USSR - as it was mentioned many times, Soviets are generally weak in this game and will not hold out without active Allied contribution. But at the same time I feel, they don't need that much help. I see following options:
1. Make Japanese 2nd front way less likely. Today a cookie cutter strategy is to go for USSR with JP at the end of 1941, sometimes even earlier. It is easy and pays off fast and hard. IRL this wasn't that obvious option. NM debuff is probably not sufficient, I'd take it as axis, but maybe spawn some additional units only when JP DOW's? To not weaken Eastern Front and make JP advance way more problematic. By advance I mean going for Irkutsk, taking Vladivostok should be imho somehow viable, though not without a cost.
2. Vladivostok - I really dislike current state. JP may buy torpedo boat, park it next to city and 30 MPP/turn go poof, even if JP is not at war with USSR and USA. Would US at least not react if their convoys would be intercepted by still neutral Japan?
Some other day someone suggested also making Vladi a fortress - maybe it's some idea.
3. Leaving JP aside, Eastern Front needs some buff, but only with small steps in the beginning. I see 3 options - making Syberians a bit stronger, giving Russia additional tank (they start with none in Europe, how much did they have IRL?) or make them start with a chit in IW1. 3rd option seems a very small step and doesn't seem to go overboard, what do you think?

This thread is great, players are very creative and at the same time, they left their pitchforks at home. [:)]

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

1. Make Japanese 2nd front way less likely. Today a cookie cutter strategy is to go for USSR with JP at the end of 1941, sometimes even earlier. It is easy and pays off fast and hard. IRL this wasn't that obvious option. NM debuff is probably not sufficient, I'd take it as axis, but maybe spawn some additional units only when JP DOW's? To not weaken Eastern Front and make JP advance way more problematic. By advance I mean going for Irkutsk, taking Vladivostok should be imho somehow viable, though not without a cost.
2. Vladivostok - I really dislike current state. JP may buy torpedo boat, park it next to city and 30 MPP/turn go poof, even if JP is not at war with USSR and USA. Would US at least not react if their convoys would be intercepted by still neutral Japan?
Some other day someone suggested also making Vladi a fortress - maybe it's some idea.
3. Leaving JP aside, Eastern Front needs some buff, but only with small steps in the beginning. I see 3 options - making Syberians a bit stronger, giving Russia additional tank (they start with none in Europe, how much did they have IRL?) or make them start with a chit in IW1. 3rd option seems a very small step and doesn't seem to go overboard, what do you think?

Vladivostok would have fallen almost instantly, if Japan chose the "Strike North" option instead; saying you'd deign to make it "somehow viable" sounds like there is some some doubt in real-life whether Japan could have even achieved this!

To make a long story short, I think hindsight bias based on the ultimate outcome of World War II (especially in the Far East after the Russian declaration of war against Japan in 1945) has made some in the West vastly over-estimate the Red Army and conversely under-estimate its Japanese counterpart - at least in the context of 1941, our hypothetical clash date. Also, the Strike North option was "alive," so to speak, among Japanese policy-makers up to literally months before Pearl Harbor, albeit in a scaled-down version. And no, contrary to Western perception - fed by Russian propaganda - the Nomohan incident was likely not what spooked the Japanese. Nomohan was a small-scale clash - far less significant than, say, Tours (which is apparently epoch-making for Europeans though it barely registers for Arabs) or Talas (the same for Muslims though again the Chinese think it was just one among many innumerable border spats in Chinese history). Instead, the decision to opt for the "Strike South" option instead was due to a complex set of factors - not the least important of which was that the "Strike North" faction was largely purged after a failed coup.

What would have happened if Japan invaded Russia in 1941? It depends on the timing - before Stalin transfers troops to the European theater or after? Either way, however, it would not have looked good for the Soviets. As one of the highest-level commanders in the Far Eastern Soviet forces famously said, Russian plight would have been "hopeless" if Japan committed fully in 1941. Remember, Japan does not have to drive to Irkutsk for the Axis to win - much less split occupy Russia with Nazi Germany. At a minimum, even tying down the Soviet Far Eastern forces alone would mean that those pivotal Siberian divisions that relieved and augmented the Moscow front would not be there. Heck, even cutting off Vladivostok may have starved Russia to death. If, on the other hand, Japan attacked after Stalin emptied the Far East, who is going to stop the Japanese? Russians can't even fight a war of attrition - which was about the only thing they were good at in 1941 - because Stalin sure is not transferring armies from Leningrad, Moscow, or Stalingrad. I suspect Stalin would have panicked and offered the entire Far East to Japan - just as he offered all of Ukraine to Hitler in a secret negotiation right around the start of Barbarossa.

The upshot: If we are going by "IRL," then the Soviets would have a very limited capacity to resist Japanese northern thrust, if it comes after Barbarossa. So please I'd rather not hear historical arguments in favor of buffing the Soviets in the Far East. If game balance dictates it, then, well, I think single player experience ought to matter too, as I have been saying on this thread; and I am not persuaded that Russia needs help in single player at least.

On the proposal to place an extra tank in the Far East: That just sounds bizarre, given that the Soviets had more personnel and tanks in Europe. It is already weird that the Soviets have more tanks in this game in Siberia, but another? Surely, we can have a different way to buff the Soviets - if they even need to be buffed in the Far East?

[Marcinos1985]

So please I'd rather not hear historical arguments in favor of buffing the Soviets in the Far East.

If you don't want to hear about it, then just don't browse this thread. [:)]
It's about balance in PBEM matches, as stated in opening post and there are no bad ideas, as long as game gets more 'even'.