Fix to help China stay in the war.

[Alcibiades73]

Just for a point of comparison (while keeping in mind that in 1939 Japan possessed less than half the divisions that either Germany or France possessed and approximately the same number that Italy possessed):

Japan:

13 Armies; 9 Corps; 1 Special Forces.

China:

8 Armies; 15 Corps; 1 Engineers.

Germany:

6 Armies, 12 Corps; 2 Tanks.

Italy:

3 Armies, 5 Corps; 1 Tanks.

France:

5 Armies; 8 Corps.

[wobbleguts]

ORIGINAL: smckechnie

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but any elite or veteran player will wipe out China by the end of 1941 under current set up.

Here are the basic moves to do it currently. This has to be sequenced over a number of turns.

1. Redeploy army and Corps units from Manchuria.
2. Replace Japanese HQ east of Chengchow. With level 7 commander. This makes a big difference. Current one is at level 4.
3. Sequence of attack across the entire front is usually hit Chinese unit with Medium bomber followed up by 3 to four armies. You also bring in the SF unit that Japan has to lower Chinese Morale.
4. Get Japanese Aircraft carriers at full strength and tech. Use them to lower morale of Chinese units and or to finish them off. No kamikaze attacks though. Use light carrier for escort support.
5. The Japanese can destroy or severely damage a Chinese Army around Chengchow on the first axis turn if done right. Use aircraft carrier to draw out Chinese fighter. Then hit Army with medium bomber, armies, with upgraded HQ, and even the tac bomber. The Japanese can still easily destroy the 14th Chinese Corps that always gets killed on the first axis move east of Changsha.
6. Japan builds tac bomber, medium bomber, and at least one artillery unit within the first 6 months of the war. By 1941, follow sequence in step 3 above and you will wipe out the Chinese by the end of. 1941.
7. Do not worry about Nanning that much by the way. Too many people, including me in the past, send this large force to take Nanning from the south. It is better and faster for the Japanese to send 6 armies, SF, and a couple of corps to work there way west through Changsha and then southwest to Nanning. Changsha should be the first major target for the Japanese.
8. Against elite or veteran allied player Japan should could consider research and buying strategic bombers. By 1941, this will allow Japan to wipe out lots of supply and MPPs from China. As I learned against Hamburgermeat and Taifun, it is a great idea to get Japanese fighters up to level 3 for fight in Southeast Asia.
9. The strategic objective, like what almost happened in the war, is for Japan to invade Burma, take Kunming, and halt allied MPPs from getting into China. I would note that Kunming did not fall, that I know of to Japan. However, Japan launched a major offensive with something like 10 armies in 1944.

Even the AI can do it. Playing as Germany, I leave Japan and Italy to their own devices and rarely step in. I've found that if you transfer German and Italian naval units to the Pacific (after taking the Med), Japan holds out against the USA and does take China. It always seems to lose the recently conquered Philippines though.

And yes, I obviously had to step in to send Italian ships to the Pacific...

[Jackmck]

So no one has actually proposed any fixes. I have two ideas:

1- Have the US embargo vs Japan be conditioned based- i.e. Axis advance within three hexes of Chungking or Sian, instead of historical. There should be a historical option script for non-PBEM players just like there are other historical scripts.

2. US Tensions increase with Axis conquest of Chungking and Sian- also plausible had this occurred historically. Not hard to manage though as elite axis player might just wait until Japan DoW is imminent to advance into the cities. Still it may help slow the Japanese advance somewhat.

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: Jackmck

So no one has actually proposed any fixes. I have two ideas:

1- Have the US embargo vs Japan be conditioned based- i.e. Axis advance within three hexes of Chungking or Sian, instead of historical. There should be a historical option script for non-PBEM players just like there are other historical scripts.

2. US Tensions increase with Axis conquest of Chungking and Sian- also plausible had this occurred historically. Not hard to manage though as elite axis player might just wait until Japan DoW is imminent to advance into the cities. Still it may help slow the Japanese advance somewhat.

I did propose fixes that are historically accurate - and should have been implemented at release in the first place:

1. Japan loses its 1 tier of Infantry Weapons technology and get something else as a replacement.

2. The numbers of starting land-based units are dramatically reduced for both Japan and China - and, possibly, the numbers of starting units are increased for countries in the European theater.

[Platoonist]

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


I did propose fixes that are historically accurate - and should have been implemented at release in the first place:

1. Japan loses its 1 tier of Infantry Weapons technology and get something else as a replacement.

2. The numbers of starting land-based units are dramatically reduced for both Japan and China - and, possibly, the numbers of starting units are increased for countries in the European theater.

I must concur with number one. Both the Arisaka rifle and Naumbu machine gun hardly strike me as a tier one infantry weapon tech material.

Another thing that seems historically out of place in China are corps level units. Both the Japanese and Chinese military establishments omitted this echelon completely and organized their divisions directly into armies.

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: Platoonist


I must concur with number one. Both the Arisaka rifle and Naumbu machine gun hardly strike me as a tier one infantry weapon tech material.

Another thing that seems historically out of place in China are corps level units. Both the Japanese and Chinese military establishments omitted this echelon completely and organized their divisions directly into armies.

I do not know much about the Nationalist army all that well; but classifying Japanese military organization is a bit tricky. This is because what the Japanese called "army" is not equivalent to the Western "field army" in terms of manpower. In fact, it was comparable to the Western "Corps." The Japanese just called it an "army." The equivalent to the Western field army was what they called "area" or "regional" army. I suspect the devs may have been confused in this regard; and hence you see both "regional" armies and regular armies on the game roster for armies.

[Elessar2]

[Ninja'ed by the previous post]

[Mithrilotter]

I agree that generally Japanese infantry weapons were second rate. As I understood the Infantry Weapons tech from beta testing, was that tactics were also a part. Japan was very good at night attacks. Over and over again the Japanese using night attacks would defeat the better armed and equipped UK forces. So, I'm okay with Japan having Level 1 Infantry Weapons. However, I'm open to cap both Japan and China at Level 1 Infantry Weapons. I'm also open to all Japanese infantry units beginning as elite to reflect their very high morale. Beyond that, I don't feet that Japanese tactics and weapons improved as the war continued.

As for China, the Nationalists didn't want to fight Japan. They were more interested in running away to fight another day against the communists. Japan made their preferred fight inconvenient. Since the average Japanese unit was better than the average Nationalist Chinese unit, China should also be limited to Level 1 Infantry Weapons.

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: Mithrilotter

I agree that generally Japanese infantry weapons were second rate. As I understood the Infantry Weapons tech from beta testing, was that tactics were also a part. Japan was very good at night attacks. Over and over again the Japanese using night attacks would defeat the better armed and equipped UK forces. So, I'm okay with Japan having Level 1 Infantry Weapons. However, I'm open to cap both Japan and China at Level 1 Infantry Weapons. I'm also open to all Japanese infantry units beginning as elite to reflect their very high morale. Beyond that, I don't feet that Japanese tactics and weapons improved as the war continued.

Wouldn't "tactics" more be a province of the Infantry "Warfare" tech than the Infantry "Weapons" tech? As for Japanese army tactics in general: Yes, they were well-trained in night fighting. But that was partly to compensate precisely for their equipment deficit. Also, there were other aspects of tactics that the Japanese army neglected - some very basic ones. Quite often, the officers relied on the superior mythico-racial qualities, the spiritual, elan of the Japanese soldiery more than the mundane military tactics. Of course, some officers are excepted. Yamashita, for instance, understood and learned much from what was going on in Europe.

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985



Japan
China proper - 9 Armies, 3 Corps.
Manchuria and Korea: 3 Armies, 4 Corps
Forces at home/sea: 1 Army, 2 Corps, 1 Special Forces.
In total: 13 Armies, 9 Corps, Special Forces.

Additionally, 3 Carriers (6 strikes), One Medium and Tactical Bomber, one Fighter.

China
8 Armies, 15 corps. One Fighter.

At first glance, it's even 23 land units vs other 23. But if you look at composition, it's a disaster - Japan has 4 more armies and SF unit. What is more, JP has 2 offensive planes, especially effective against CHN corps.

By the way, I just realized that you neglected the fact that China gets 1 Engineers. That's not insignificant.

A neat inclusion by the devs, by the way. China is the only country who starts with Engineers, and I suppose it's a reference to the flooding of the Yellow River by the Guomindang?

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985



Japan
China proper - 9 Armies, 3 Corps.
Manchuria and Korea: 3 Armies, 4 Corps
Forces at home/sea: 1 Army, 2 Corps, 1 Special Forces.
In total: 13 Armies, 9 Corps, Special Forces.

Additionally, 3 Carriers (6 strikes), One Medium and Tactical Bomber, one Fighter.

China
8 Armies, 15 corps. One Fighter.

At first glance, it's even 23 land units vs other 23. But if you look at composition, it's a disaster - Japan has 4 more armies and SF unit. What is more, JP has 2 offensive planes, especially effective against CHN corps.

By the way, I just realized that you neglected the fact that China gets 1 Engineers. That's not insignificant.

A neat inclusion by the devs, by the way. China is the only country who starts with Engineers, and I suppose it's a reference to the flooding of the Yellow River by the Guomindang?

Edit:

The more I look into this, the more one-sided your presentation of facts seem, and you are leaving out other pivotal factors.

One thing in particular you neglect is that China gets an additional Army and 2 Corps before 1939 is over, and a Special Forces in 1940. Meanwhile, Japan gets 0 land unit addition until 1941; and those units are really intended for other fronts than the Chinese front.

TLDR: At least from a single player perspective, I am not persuaded that the game is balance tilts too heavily toward Japan. Further, I am not at this point too concerned even if this is the case, because that reflects historical reality. Finally, to the extent something needs to be fixed, I think it can be done by 1) getting rid of the extra level of Infantry Weapons for Japan (and replacing it with something else); and 2) reducing the number of overall land units for both Japan and China.

[DrZom]

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


Wouldn't "tactics" more be a province of the Infantry "Warfare" tech than the Infantry "Weapons" tech?

Precisely.

[Tanaka]

So all I've seen in this post is that elite players can win in China. I've only done it myself by committing everything and putting off other things. Is this really an issue? Probably not best to balance the game only off what elite Axis players can do in China and Russia...

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: smckechnie

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but any elite or veteran player will wipe out China by the end of 1941 under current set up.

Here are the basic moves to do it currently. This has to be sequenced over a number of turns.

1. Redeploy army and Corps units from Manchuria.
2. Replace Japanese HQ east of Chengchow. With level 7 commander. This makes a big difference. Current one is at level 4.
3. Sequence of attack across the entire front is usually hit Chinese unit with Medium bomber followed up by 3 to four armies. You also bring in the SF unit that Japan has to lower Chinese Morale.
4. Get Japanese Aircraft carriers at full strength and tech. Use them to lower morale of Chinese units and or to finish them off. No kamikaze attacks though. Use light carrier for escort support.
5. The Japanese can destroy or severely damage a Chinese Army around Chengchow on the first axis turn if done right. Use aircraft carrier to draw out Chinese fighter. Then hit Army with medium bomber, armies, with upgraded HQ, and even the tac bomber. The Japanese can still easily destroy the 14th Chinese Corps that always gets killed on the first axis move east of Changsha.
6. Japan builds tac bomber, medium bomber, and at least one artillery unit within the first 6 months of the war. By 1941, follow sequence in step 3 above and you will wipe out the Chinese by the end of. 1941.
7. Do not worry about Nanning that much by the way. Too many people, including me in the past, send this large force to take Nanning from the south. It is better and faster for the Japanese to send 6 armies, SF, and a couple of corps to work there way west through Changsha and then southwest to Nanning. Changsha should be the first major target for the Japanese.
8. Against elite or veteran allied player Japan should could consider research and buying strategic bombers. By 1941, this will allow Japan to wipe out lots of supply and MPPs from China. As I learned against Hamburgermeat and Taifun, it is a great idea to get Japanese fighters up to level 3 for fight in Southeast Asia.
9. The strategic objective, like what almost happened in the war, is for Japan to invade Burma, take Kunming, and halt allied MPPs from getting into China. I would note that Kunming did not fall, that I know of to Japan. However, Japan launched a major offensive with something like 10 armies in 1944.

China wiped out by the end of 1941? Disagree never seen that before what player have you seen do that? MP or SP? Have a hard time believing that. Proof please...

[Taifun]

[/quote]

China wiped out by the end of 1941? Disagree never seen that before what player have you seen do that? MP or SP? Have a hard time believing that. Proof please...
[/quote]

My game against Cpuncher, probably the best player in this forum... China fighting with 10 units...about to lose their last Capital

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: Taifun

...Cpuncher, probably the best player in this forum... China fighting with 10 units...about to lose their last Capital

And the game should be balanced on what "the best player" can do?

Besides, isn't Urumchi the final Chinese capital? From that screenshot, it doesn't seem that the IJA will take it before the end of the year.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73

ORIGINAL: Taifun

...Cpuncher, probably the best player in this forum... China fighting with 10 units...about to lose their last Capital

And the game should be balanced on what "the best player" can do?

Besides, isn't Urumchi the final Chinese capital? From that screenshot, it doesn't seem that the IJA will take it before the end of the year.

Agreed if this is a common thing then by all means balance it but if it is just elite players I would be more careful making drastic changes...

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Agreed if this is a common thing then by all means balance it but if it is just elite players I would be more careful making drastic changes...

I concur with what Tanaka has just opined. We just finished a MP match a few weeks back (OldCrowBalthazor-Allied) vs Tanaka(Axis) that went to March 1947. I have about 3000 hours invested into the SC-3 games,(Most of which is in MP matches) though out of that about 600 in WaW, and so consider myself a veteran player. Tanaka also knows his stuff.

So regarding China, at first I thought the same thing...that China was too weak...until within a year after reading and divining the reports that Tanaka had to put a significant amount of Japan's resources into his efforts and the Army. I also played China highly aggressive, to make him have to constantly throw money in that theater. China finally collapsed in 1945.

Now, I am in an MP match with a YouTuber called The Colonel, with me playing Axis. With roles reversed, I decided right out of the gate to invest heavily into aviation and naval research plus an expansion of the Navy, with all the new subs, DD's and a Carrier to be on line just before till a little after Dec 1941. This meant limiting my efforts in China, though I pushed pretty hard at times, in order to divert money for a Pacific first strategy. This strategy has payed off, and my opponent's China is contained, almost historically, while I pursue dominance over the Pacific.

I guess my point is, when seeking to address balance issues concerning China theater, (or any other), that using an example like Cpuncher or any other "Top Player" as a reference point to illustrate a balance short fall in China would be same as just inserting Chinggis Khan for him. [:D]

As a side note, I like the idea of having the Japanese Inf Weapons staring tech reduced in some fashion, with a modest boost in Infantry Warfare or something similar. Somehow, have it like Germany at the beginning of the war, where decisions on upgrading 0 level units or attacking comes up in the early turns.

[Marcinos1985]

Agreed if this is a common thing then by all means balance it but if it is just elite players I would be more careful making drastic changes...

I don't think any drastic changes were proposed, and developers do not grab pitchforks that fast too. The proposal from Jackmck sounds reasonable and would make Axis player more careful.

To see whether this (Taifun's game) is a common occurence, it is worthy to check AAR's in subforum. To effectively beat China and then start a mop-up operation, Axis player has to take Chonqqing and Kunming in 1941. This way China stays without Major Capital, which spells supply issues and unit deployment may be made only in Lanchow/Urumchi, and additionally, there will be no aid from US. Let's see what happened in AAR's from good players. Date specified is for fall of Chongqing:

1. zzmzzm vs sveint - 07-8.1941, no exact date specified
2. HamburgerMeat vs clausewitz - in September 1942 Capital still intact, but Sian and Kunming gone
3. Taifun vs calcwerc - 08.1941
4. Cpuncher vs Fafnir - 08.1941
5. Taifun vs smckechnie - 08.1941

I myself lost Chongqing to Taifun in 1941 and nearly to HM in 1941 (game didn't last that long). So as you see, it's not some kind of hipster event that China is gone quickly. That's only a matter of a price to pay, and it's usually not that high.

[eightroomofelixir]

Another thing worth noting about the China-Japan balancing is the terrain. For instance, in the game, you can see the hexes around Changsha are relatively flat, thus making a Japanese push from Nanchang into Changsha or from Changsha into Kweichow (Guiyang) quite easy.

In reality, the province where Changsha resides, Hunan, is a very mountainous province with less than 1/4 of it being plains and river valleys. In between Changsha and Nanchang, there exists the Luoxiao Mountains，with at least 4 peaks over 2000m. The Hengshan Mountains, situated right between Changsha and Hengyang, has a peak of over 1000m. In between Changsha and Kweichow, the terrain is so mountainous that in the 1930s the place wasn't even Sinicized, dominated by the Miao people; and the road network in the region was nearly non-exist. Basically, you cannot push any modern military units larger than a division through these mountains without suffering severe logistic issues; rural southern China in the 1930-40s had a logistical situation similar to that of northern Burma, that is, a nightmare.

The same thing can be said to northern China as well. In reality, there is a massive mountain range that flanks the southern bank of the Yellow River in between Chengchow (Zhengzhou) and Si'an (Xi'an), which reduce all the possible traffic into a small strip of land. Even today all the highways and railways between Xi'an and Zhengzhou need to go through one single mountain pass, and whoever holds the pass could deny everyone coming from east. While in the game, you can see two hexes west of Chengchow just being hills.

As Platoonist said, what saved the Nationalist China IRL was a nearly undeclared truce (there was a major battle around the Three Gorges region in 1943 as the Japanese tried to directly push towards Chongqing, so not really a truce period all the way), and the terrain-logistic difficulties in China heavily contributed to this truce period as well. Even in Operation Ichi-Go, pushing west into the mountain regions was not a primary Japanese strategic objective. On the other hand, all these terrain difficulties were not properly addressed in the game, an experienced and determined Axis player can overcome the in-game logistic obstacles and push into Lanchow with ease.