Where the Chrysanthemums Grow - DesertWolf101 (J) vs ITAKLinus (A)

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

I see very big research efforts on KI-84a and i wonder if it isn't overkill at some point.

When i ran my analysis and simulations it averaged:

01 = 12/09/43
02 = 10/20/43
03 = 10/01/43
04 = 08/31/43
05 = 08/11/43
06 = 08/01/43
07 = 07/27/43
08 = 07/19/43
09 = 07/12/43
10 = 07/07/43
11 = 07/03/43
12 = 07/01/43

I chose 8. I can see going to 9 or 10 to guard against some bad dice rolls but 12 seems a little overboard.

Just my experience. I could be all wrong. DYODD.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: Evoken

Both of you are really good players , good luck!

Thanks!

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Some further food for thought:

1) With R&D, my thinking tend to be along the line of focusing on the real "game changers" for the IJ air war. To that end, I think focusing on what the big "step changes" airframes rather than incremental improvements are best. The A6M2 to A6M5c falls in the "good enough" category of incremental improvement. The big step change is the Sam/Shiden. To that end, I like to limit myself to the 5c, get it at a decent time and then put the effort to add to the existing Sam/Shinden R&D to get that ball out the door.

2) I'd question what place it will have in a game where there's such a big investment in the Ki-84. If you were going for an all-out '42 auto-vic campaign then I'd see the value, but if you're looking to do something different then I'd argue for skipping the airframe. The '84 is all round much better, and with your investment in R&D for it, the Tojo won't really have all that much time in the sun. At that point I wonder what the point is and if you're not better using the factories for something else.

3) The Peggy T is one arm of IJA anti-shipping. Any plans for using the Lily dive bomber varients?

1) Sounds reasonable to me.
2) I find that having the Tojo even for only those several months before Frank shows up as potentially invaluable. It's also a service 1 fighter that I would continue to rely on in certain sitations for the rest of the game.
3) I plan on building the Lily dive bomber but it arrives early enough that I don't plan on allocating R&D for it. With the Peggy T I also want to get it as soon as possible to be able to train IJA on torpedo attack. With dive bombing I can use existing level bombers for that so the need is not as acute.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi

I see very big research efforts on KI-84a and i wonder if it isn't overkill at some point.

When i ran my analysis and simulations it averaged:

01 = 12/09/43
02 = 10/20/43
03 = 10/01/43
04 = 08/31/43
05 = 08/11/43
06 = 08/01/43
07 = 07/27/43
08 = 07/19/43
09 = 07/12/43
10 = 07/07/43
11 = 07/03/43
12 = 07/01/43

I chose 8. I can see going to 9 or 10 to guard against some bad dice rolls but 12 seems a little overboard.

Just my experience. I could be all wrong. DYODD.

I don't know enough about the data on this one way or another, but there are three overall reasons why I went 12. These are:
1) Ki-84 is a top priority for me, I am hedging against bad luck and creating some opportunity to take advantage of some good luck with 12 factories.
2) I am actually looking to get the Ki-84r as quickly as possible. I plan on transitioning 2 factories to Ki-84a but keep 10 factories going for the Ki-84r. With 10 factories, the Ki-84r will arrive very fast.
3) I will need to produce the Ki-84r in large numbers, having many factories already built up when it arrives allows me to transition immediately into mass production.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

2) I find that having the Tojo even for only those several months before Frank shows up as potentially invaluable. It's also a service 1 fighter that I would continue to rely on in certain sitations for the rest of the game.

That's perfectly fair, I am something of a prophet in the wilderness with my dislike for the Tojo.

If there's a airframe to fill the role of the SR1 IJA fighter then it has to be the Oscar. Granted, it won't keep up with later Allied airframes, but it makes up for this with the fantastic MVR ratings that can be properly leveraged into real success even against later Allied airframes.

I will refer you to TheElf's comments here.

3) I plan on building the Lily dive bomber but it arrives early enough that I don't plan on allocating R&D for it. With the Peggy T I also want to get it as soon as possible to be able to train IJA on torpedo attack. With dive bombing I can use existing level bombers for that so the need is not as acute.

Pragmatic.

Any plans for the Nick?

I see some success with fighters/fighter bombers on low naval attack.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi

I see very big research efforts on KI-84a and i wonder if it isn't overkill at some point.

When i ran my analysis and simulations it averaged:

01 = 12/09/43
02 = 10/20/43
03 = 10/01/43
04 = 08/31/43
05 = 08/11/43
06 = 08/01/43
07 = 07/27/43
08 = 07/19/43
09 = 07/12/43
10 = 07/07/43
11 = 07/03/43
12 = 07/01/43

I chose 8. I can see going to 9 or 10 to guard against some bad dice rolls but 12 seems a little overboard.

Just my experience. I could be all wrong. DYODD.

Difference between 8 and 12 for the R version is night and day -- 12.5 days per month acceleration boost![:)]

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

2) I find that having the Tojo even for only those several months before Frank shows up as potentially invaluable. It's also a service 1 fighter that I would continue to rely on in certain sitations for the rest of the game.

The Tojo is a very handy plane to have if the Allies make an all out fight of it early. And I think every JFB should plan on that, because you can adjust easily to a Sir Robin but you can't adjust to an early fighter without costing a lot of supplies.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

2) I find that having the Tojo even for only those several months before Frank shows up as potentially invaluable. It's also a service 1 fighter that I would continue to rely on in certain sitations for the rest of the game.

The Tojo is a very handy plane to have if the Allies make an all out fight of it early. And I think every JFB should plan on that, because you can adjust easily to a Sir Robin but you can't adjust to an early fighter without costing a lot of supplies.

I've always felt that the short-range on it really limits it's usefulness, especially outside of Burma.

An 8 hex range is fine for as confined a theatre as Burma, but largely limits the plane to a defensive role in other more expansive theatres. Challenging to use it in the Central Pacific, for example.

I think I'd rather have more Oscars that can be multi-role and lean on the Nicks (which you will likely build anyway to make use of the dedicated FB squadrons) for to back them up rather than spend R&D on a plane that has narrow use (both temporally and geographically) until the Frank appears in numbers.

The other consideration is that the Oscar has some value as a massed kamikaze airframe (not as good as the Frank however) while the Tojo doesn't really.

That said, happy to accept I'm the dissenting opinion on this one!

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

2) I find that having the Tojo even for only those several months before Frank shows up as potentially invaluable. It's also a service 1 fighter that I would continue to rely on in certain sitations for the rest of the game.

The Tojo is a very handy plane to have if the Allies make an all out fight of it early. And I think every JFB should plan on that, because you can adjust easily to a Sir Robin but you can't adjust to an early fighter without costing a lot of supplies.

I've always felt that the short-range on it really limits it's usefulness, especially outside of Burma.

An 8 hex range is fine for as confined a theatre as Burma, but largely limits the plane to a defensive role in other more expansive theatres. Challenging to use it in the Central Pacific, for example.

I think I'd rather have more Oscars that can be multi-role and lean on the Nicks (which you will likely build anyway to make use of the dedicated FB squadrons) for to back them up rather than spend R&D on a plane that has narrow use (both temporally and geographically) until the Frank appears in numbers.

The other consideration is that the Oscar has some value as a massed kamikaze airframe (not as good as the Frank however) while the Tojo doesn't really.

That said, happy to accept I'm the dissenting opinion on this one!

If the first Tojo that comes is good enough, they may be no reason to research farther along the line but then there is no problem building that one as you see how the game develops.

It also depends upon the scenario and the engine that it uses. If it uses a special engine in common with the Helen and you are not going to build any Helens, then I can see not building the Tojo at all nor any of those engines.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Any plans for the Nick?

I see some success with fighters/fighter bombers on low naval attack.

Not R&D wise no, but I will most certainly build it in large numbers. Given its flexibility, I find the Nick to be an extremely important weapon in Japan's arsenal. Especially so in 1942 but really in some roles (I imagine) for the duration of the conflict.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi

I see very big research efforts on KI-84a and i wonder if it isn't overkill at some point.

When i ran my analysis and simulations it averaged:

01 = 12/09/43
02 = 10/20/43
03 = 10/01/43
04 = 08/31/43
05 = 08/11/43
06 = 08/01/43
07 = 07/27/43
08 = 07/19/43
09 = 07/12/43
10 = 07/07/43
11 = 07/03/43
12 = 07/01/43

I chose 8. I can see going to 9 or 10 to guard against some bad dice rolls but 12 seems a little overboard.

Just my experience. I could be all wrong. DYODD.

Difference between 8 and 12 for the R version is night and day -- 12.5 days per month acceleration boost![:)]

Even more so with the engine bonus which I plan to have!

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lowpe






The Tojo is a very handy plane to have if the Allies make an all out fight of it early. And I think every JFB should plan on that, because you can adjust easily to a Sir Robin but you can't adjust to an early fighter without costing a lot of supplies.

I've always felt that the short-range on it really limits it's usefulness, especially outside of Burma.

An 8 hex range is fine for as confined a theatre as Burma, but largely limits the plane to a defensive role in other more expansive theatres. Challenging to use it in the Central Pacific, for example.

I think I'd rather have more Oscars that can be multi-role and lean on the Nicks (which you will likely build anyway to make use of the dedicated FB squadrons) for to back them up rather than spend R&D on a plane that has narrow use (both temporally and geographically) until the Frank appears in numbers.

The other consideration is that the Oscar has some value as a massed kamikaze airframe (not as good as the Frank however) while the Tojo doesn't really.

That said, happy to accept I'm the dissenting opinion on this one!

If the first Tojo that comes is good enough, they may be no reason to research farther along the line but then there is no problem building that one as you see how the game develops.

It also depends upon the scenario and the engine that it uses. If it uses a special engine in common with the Helen and you are not going to build any Helens, then I can see not building the Tojo at all nor any of those engines.

+1

The best outcome in term of these decisions is impacted by numerous variables. Ranging from other production plans to preferred game style to most importantly the evolving situation on the map. I can't imagine I would have done as well against Andy Mac's concentrated and escorted bomber strikes in very early 1943 with just the Zero, Oscar and limited Nicks. The Tojo was key in that scenario, but most probably would not be as key in others.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Any plans for the Nick?

I see some success with fighters/fighter bombers on low naval attack.

Not R&D wise no, but I will most certainly build it in large numbers. Given its flexibility, I find the Nick to be an extremely important weapon in Japan's arsenal. Especially so in 1942 but really in some roles (I imagine) for the duration of the conflict.

That seems the right approach to my thinking.

Nick arrives too early for R&D to be worthwhile, and the subsequent Nick models are a downgrade in my view and the Randy B seems at best very slight improvement over the Nick A.

The other IJA fighter bomber options are a joke (Nate FB, anyone?) or arrive too late to be useful. I'd like to se the Ki-94-Ib as a fast, low naval attack plane, but with an arrival date of 11/45 and a service rating of 4, I find it hard to see when it would see action.

There is the Randy A, which is classed as a fighter. That may be an option if you want a high durability anti-bomber plane for the late war, but it has no bombs so less flexibility.

To be honest, I don't think it does much that the Frank R can't already do.

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: mind_messing




I've always felt that the short-range on it really limits it's usefulness, especially outside of Burma.

An 8 hex range is fine for as confined a theatre as Burma, but largely limits the plane to a defensive role in other more expansive theatres. Challenging to use it in the Central Pacific, for example.

I think I'd rather have more Oscars that can be multi-role and lean on the Nicks (which you will likely build anyway to make use of the dedicated FB squadrons) for to back them up rather than spend R&D on a plane that has narrow use (both temporally and geographically) until the Frank appears in numbers.

The other consideration is that the Oscar has some value as a massed kamikaze airframe (not as good as the Frank however) while the Tojo doesn't really.

That said, happy to accept I'm the dissenting opinion on this one!

If the first Tojo that comes is good enough, they may be no reason to research farther along the line but then there is no problem building that one as you see how the game develops.

It also depends upon the scenario and the engine that it uses. If it uses a special engine in common with the Helen and you are not going to build any Helens, then I can see not building the Tojo at all nor any of those engines.

+1

The best outcome in term of these decisions is impacted by numerous variables. Ranging from other production plans to preferred game style to most importantly the evolving situation on the map. I can't imagine I would have done as well against Andy Mac's concentrated and escorted bomber strikes in very early 1943 with just the Zero, Oscar and limited Nicks. The Tojo was key in that scenario, but most probably would not be as key in others.

That's a fair response. I suppose my thinking boils down to the fact that the last Oscar model seems comparable in many ways to the Tojo, but with much great potential uses. That of course ignores the timing and on-map demands.

[DesertWolf101]

December 10, 1941

SRA

The approach to Mersing was the critical sector for this turn. I was somewhat surprised to see minimal interference from Francisco's naval assets aside from some MTBs that were quickly dealt with. I imagine he probably pulled back his bigger warships due to the enhanced Nettie threat given my capture of Kuching.

The threat from the air on the other hand was very much there today. Francesco threw the kitchen sink at me - dozens of torpedo bombers, dozens of regular bombers, and dozens of Catalina and Dornier patrol aircraft (the American ones torpedo capable) came at my ships, escorted by more than 50 Buffalo/Blenheim fighters. My fighter LRCAP did what it could, but against such a mass of enemy aircraft significant numbers broke through during both the morning and afternoon phases. Unfortunately this included some 50 Vildebeest sorties overall that made their torpedo attack runs. The overwhelming favorite (and the only Japanese ship to be hit today) was the battleship Kongo, which ended up taking three torpedo hits. Very very fortunately, damage turned out to be minimal all things considered, as the Kongo took the hits like a champ, suffering only 14 system and 23 flood damage (8 of which is major). Furthermore, the 4th Division is completely ashore at Mersing!

Elsewhere in the SRA my cruiser/destroyer task forces continued to thin out the thundering herd, particularly in the Celebes Sea.

Central Pacific

Given the weather related lack of action yesterday, I figured enough of Francesco's fighters must have repaired their damage to raise the CAP potency at Pearl to dangerous levels. I therefore stood back with the KB and did some sweeps only to be met by thin air.... Val dive bombers did pick apart one of two destroyers that sortied out against me however.

China

The Chinese arrived in significant numbers at Ichang last turn and immediately launched their attack this turn. A pretty good result for the Chinese, so the race is on to save the garrison.

[RangerJoe]

I find Jakes on Low Naval to be decent even with rookie pilots when they attack merchant type vessels. When they get trained, they can build up experience on something like ASW before they become a Divine Wind - or a BIG PHART!

[mind_messing]

Always better to be lucky than good, especially so in the case of Kongo.

The Chinese arrived in significant numbers at Ichang last turn and immediately launched their attack this turn. A pretty good result for the Chinese, so the race is on to save the garrison.

Agreed, but you should be able to really leverage the clear terrain to even the odds via air attack and look to counterattack promptly.

A big Allied investment into taking Ichang tends to leave the Chinese fairly thin on troops on the northern flank of Changsha, especially if the Chinese units retreat off the road grid. It's a long, awkward walk back to a useful position.

Not sure what your plans are in this theatre, but I lean towards going for Changsha first, rather than Sian. A closer goal, ovr easier terrain, and gives you a base that can easily be supplied via the Yangtse for to start bombing the airbase (and attending aircraft) as well as the Chinese supply stockpile in Chungking. In comparison Sian feels like a fight over an awkward road network, terrible terrain and too many river crossings. Changsha even has it's river crossings on the "right" side for an IJA attack...

[Lowpe]

You can convert some Light Bomber squadrons to Nicks/Randys...this gives you the practical effect of increasing your fighter presence by allocating rear area bomber defense to these planes freeing up your dedicated fighters for other probably more important work...also helps prevent sudden ship loss from a deep air strike against a port loaded with ships.

Also, they can be an early counter to P38s.

As an Anti fletcher force, they never worked for me...much better is the Lilly divebomber with range and dropping 2 SAP bombs...the equivalent of a 6" Brooklyn shell if I recall correctly.

The Randy fighter has a very high altitude rating.

Not a fan of turn fighters into Kamikazes...I seem always to be short fighter squadrons plus I never supersize them. Although Kamikaze fighter squadrons can still do LRCAP and Sweep and CAP roles.

The value in upgrading to the last Nick is engine usage. Randy FB are worthwhile and perform better than Nicks across the board.

I like when the Allies attack at Ichang, as those are some of the best Chinese troops in the theater...a great opportunity to smash them good, and I think forts start high at Ichang.

[mind_messing]

I'll echo Lowpe on some of this. Less so on other aspects

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

As an Anti fletcher force, they never worked for me...much better is the Lilly divebomber with range and dropping 2 SAP bombs...the equivalent of a 6" Brooklyn shell if I recall correctly.

The only downside to the Lily is that the 100kg bombs they carry struggle to put the hurt on anything with serious armour. They're great against destroyers, the older cruisers, and anything thin on the top (transports, non-armoured carriers)

Not a fan of turn fighters into Kamikazes...I seem always to be short fighter squadrons plus I never supersize them. Although Kamikaze fighter squadrons can still do LRCAP and Sweep and CAP roles.

I'm thinking of all those late-war training squadrons you get with Nates and the like that you'll want to convert to using better planes, either for dedicated kamikaze operations or otherwise.

IMO you'll want to use some of them for dedicated kamikaze as speed seems to be a big variable, both in terms of getting a good time to target and to make it hard for the Allied CAP.

The value in upgrading to the last Nick is engine usage. Randy FB are worthwhile and perform better than Nicks across the board.

You're sold on the Randy B? Looking at the stats I find that really hard to determine what the key difference is. The only thing I can think of is that the 57mm + 2x20mm just makes it that much more lethal as otherwise the two planes seem well matched.

May need to change my tune on that aircraft then.

[rustysi]

I may have missed it, but do you guys have any HR's in place?

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

You're sold on the Randy B? Looking at the stats I find that really hard to determine what the key difference is. The only thing I can think of is that the 57mm + 2x20mm just makes it that much more lethal as otherwise the two planes seem well matched.

May need to change my tune on that aircraft then.

Given Lowpe's hight altitude reference, I assume he meant to refer to the Randy A rather than the Randy B?