Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many

[jubjub]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: xhoel

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


I do agree the AP dumps the Soviets get are excessive in light of the lower costs of doing business compared to WiTE1.

For the long campaign, the first two dumps of 200 on turn 27 and 250 on turn 44 could be retained with the remaining 4 events of a combined 1,050 dropped.

Good to see an experienced Soviet player as yourself chip in on the convo M60, appreciate the feedback!

1.050? I didnt even know they get that many, Jesus Chris. I think thats a fair proposal, dont want to go too hard on the other direction and not allow the Soviets some flexibility either.

Soviet get a total of 1,500 free AP up to June 1943. Please check out chart 40.12 Soviet Administrative Point gains and scripted reinforcements. Plus 1,200,000 men.

As I mentioned in another thread the AP given should not be generic AP. It should be another category for the event that just happened. Thus the Nov 41 event of gifted 200 AP should be labeled, "CAV/Ski AP" and those AP points can ONLY be used to purchase CAV/Ski units. At the moment the Soviets just says, "Merry Xmas" every time they get a dump of AP and ask's Mr. Grisby if he can do it again for them. Then the Soviets look what goodies they can buy or forts they can erect in a hurry if not using the AP for what was supposed to be purchased.

Also, the cost for replacing Soviet leaders is absurdly low. You can replace a 5 pol rating front commander for 12 AP's. Replacing army leaders is even cheaper. Compare that to the axis situation, where replacing an army commander is usually 20 points base, and corps commanders almost never cost less than 10.

[Kursk1943]

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Very nice site and I just bookmarked it for future reference.

The early Mar/Apr 42 Tank Corps organizations list a single Reconnaissance Company. Do you know the composition of that company?

Trey

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Guard Tank Corps was promoted from already existing Tank Corps. There was nothing like "lets build a few more Guard Tank Corps from separate Guard Tank Brigades". Normally Soviet Tank Corps its a 3 Tank Brigades, 1 Moto-Rifle Brigade and other sub-units.
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/tk.html

My source is "The Soviet Order of Battle World War II" bei Charles C. Sharp published by George F. Nafziger first edition 1995.
In Volume II School of Battle: the Tank Corps and Tank Brigades January 1942 to 1945 the composition and equipment for the 1st Tank Corps (formed March 1942) lists for the 15th Reconnaissance Company 15 armored cars (not further specified).

[xhoel]

@HLYA: Yes the APs the Soviets get seem very high. I dont know if it would be possible to implement something that would force the player to only use the APs for forming Cav/Ski units though. I think M60s proposal of cutting the other 4 events that give plenty of AP is a good one.

I am aware of the Airborne Brigade exploit. In my opinion it shouldnt be possible to build anymore of these Brigades than what you have at the start and what you get as reinforcements. The fact that building them up automatically gives you a Guard Division is nonsense.

@jubjub: True, although honestly I see the same problem with the Axis. You can very easily tailor your army to perfection, which simply wouldnt have been possible.

[xhoel]

Looking more into the unit compositions for the Tank and Mechanized Corps I also noticed that the caps that we have in game are a tad bit generous and there is double counting happening.

The Soviets fielded 31 Tank Corps during the war. Of those, 5 only existed for a few months and were converted to Mechanized Corps (8th, 14th, 22nd, 27th, 28th TC), 1 was destroyed and never rebuild (21st TC) and 1 was organized as a Mechanized Corps but called a tank Corps (13th TC).

If you remove the TC that reorganized as MC you are left with 25 TC for the war. I think that should be the cap for 1943 and later, while for 1942 it should be 22, since 3 Tank Corps were formed later in 1943. Out of these units, 12 made Guards which translates to 48%.

Tank Corps that made Guards by year:
1942 - 3
1943 - 7
1944 - 2

For the Mechanized Corps: 10 MCs were created, 5 from converted TC (all in September 1942) mentioned above and 5 freshly raised (1 in 1942, 3 in 1943 and 1 in 1944). In addition to that, if we count the 13th TC as a Mechanized Corps due to its build, that would bring the total of MCs to 11.

A total of 9 Guards MC were raised: 6 from existing MCs converted to Guards (13th Tank Corps/MC converted to 4th Guards MC), while 3 Guard MCs (2 in 1942 and 1 in 1943) were raised from other formations like Motorized Rifle Divisions. This brings the total of Mechanized Corps to 14, instead of the 16 that the game allows for the war.

For 1942 the cap on MC should be 9, for 1943 should be 13 and for 1944 and the rest of the war it should be 14. 6 of the existing MCs converted to guards which translates to 54%.

So a lowering of the caps would also help keep in line with history.

[Nikel]

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Very nice site and I just bookmarked it for future reference.

The early Mar/Apr 42 Tank Corps organizations list a single Reconnaissance Company. Do you know the composition of that company?

Trey

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Guard Tank Corps was promoted from already existing Tank Corps. There was nothing like "lets build a few more Guard Tank Corps from separate Guard Tank Brigades". Normally Soviet Tank Corps its a 3 Tank Brigades, 1 Moto-Rifle Brigade and other sub-units.
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/tk.html

In Zaloga's, Companion to the Red Army.

The Reconnaissance Company depends of the Motorized Rifle Brigade of the TK in April 1942 (TO 10/370-380), and lists:

Personnel 148.

Pistols 33.

Submachine guns 44.

Rifles ?

Armored cars 7.

Motorcycles 10.

Trucks 10. These are armored, not like the rest present in the MRB.

[Kursk1943]

I'm not sure if Great_Ajax referred to the independent reconnaissance company directly attached to Corps HQ.
Yours seems to be an integral element of the motorized rifle brigade.
My source states that the independent reconnaissance companies were quickly replaced by motorcycle battalions.

[Great_Ajax]

I'm using Sharp for my primary reference and he refers to an Independent Reconnaissance Company assigned directly to the corps hq. I have all of organization data I need for the recon company in the Motorized Brigade. I believe the Jul 42 OB version will transition from the recon company to the motorcycle battalion.

ORIGINAL: Kursk1943

I'm not sure if Great_Ajax referred to the independent reconnaissance company directly attached to Corps HQ.
Yours seems to be an integral element of the motorized rifle brigade.
My source states that the independent reconnaissance companies were quickly replaced by motorcycle battalions.

[Great_Ajax]

A 10% allowance for going over historical numbers were built into the caps. There were some tank corps that never finalized formation that are also counted.

ORIGINAL: xhoel

Looking more into the unit compositions for the Tank and Mechanized Corps I also noticed that the caps that we have in game are a tad bit generous and there is double counting happening.

The Soviets fielded 31 Tank Corps during the war. Of those, 5 only existed for a few months and were converted to Mechanized Corps (8th, 14th, 22nd, 27th, 28th TC), 1 was destroyed and never rebuild (21st TC) and 1 was organized as a Mechanized Corps but called a tank Corps (13th TC).

If you remove the TC that reorganized as MC you are left with 25 TC for the war. I think that should be the cap for 1943 and later, while for 1942 it should be 22, since 3 Tank Corps were formed later in 1943. Out of these units, 12 made Guards which translates to 48%.

Tank Corps that made Guards by year:
1942 - 3
1943 - 7
1944 - 2

For the Mechanized Corps: 10 MCs were created, 5 from converted TC (all in September 1942) mentioned above and 5 freshly raised (1 in 1942, 3 in 1943 and 1 in 1944). In addition to that, if we count the 13th TC as a Mechanized Corps due to its build, that would bring the total of MCs to 11.

A total of 9 Guards MC were raised: 6 from existing MCs converted to Guards (13th Tank Corps/MC converted to 4th Guards MC), while 3 Guard MCs (2 in 1942 and 1 in 1943) were raised from other formations like Motorized Rifle Divisions. This brings the total of Mechanized Corps to 14, instead of the 16 that the game allows for the war.

For 1942 the cap on MC should be 9, for 1943 should be 13 and for 1944 and the rest of the war it should be 14. 6 of the existing MCs converted to guards which translates to 54%.

So a lowering of the caps would also help keep in line with history.

[Nikel]

Kursk1943, Great_Ajax.

I was assuming that there was not such an independent reconnaissance unit in march-april, for example Glantz:

"Beginning in March 1942, he (Fedorenko) organized tank and later mechanized corps that were actually equivalent in capability to German divisions. The first four tank corps consisted of two tank brigades, one truck-mounted rifle brigade, and very little else, for a total strength of 5,603 men and 100 tanks (20 KVs, 40 T-34s, and 40 T-60s). Almost immediately, however, Fedorenko decided to add a third tank brigade plus various combat support elements necessary for sustained operations. By July 1942, a typical tank corps included three tank brigades of 53 tanks each (32 medium and 21 light); one motorized rifle brigade; a motorcycle reconnaissance battalion; battalions of mortars, antiaircraft guns, and multiple-rocket launchers (“guards-mortars”); a combat engineer (sapper) company; and somewhat later a transportation company with two mobile repair teams. The total authorized strength of this organization grew to 7,800 men, 98 T-34 medium tanks, and 70 light tanks."

Zaloga states the same, no reconnaissance unit, except the one inside the MRB.

[Kursk1943]

ORIGINAL: Nikel

Kursk1943, Great_Ajax.

I was assuming that there was not such an independent reconnaissance unit in march-april, for example Glantz:

"Beginning in March 1942, he (Fedorenko) organized tank and later mechanized corps that were actually equivalent in capability to German divisions. The first four tank corps consisted of two tank brigades, one truck-mounted rifle brigade, and very little else, for a total strength of 5,603 men and 100 tanks (20 KVs, 40 T-34s, and 40 T-60s). Almost immediately, however, Fedorenko decided to add a third tank brigade plus various combat support elements necessary for sustained operations. By July 1942, a typical tank corps included three tank brigades of 53 tanks each (32 medium and 21 light); one motorized rifle brigade; a motorcycle reconnaissance battalion; battalions of mortars, antiaircraft guns, and multiple-rocket launchers (“guards-mortars”); a combat engineer (sapper) company; and somewhat later a transportation company with two mobile repair teams. The total authorized strength of this organization grew to 7,800 men, 98 T-34 medium tanks, and 70 light tanks."

Zaloga states the same, no reconnaissance unit, except the one inside the MRB.

That doesn't contradict Sharp's data for 1st Tank Corps (15th independent Reconnaisance Company). That's an example for ""very little else".

[Nikel]

Zaloga is more contundent: [;)]

"The corps included no artillery, reconnaissance or engineer units, nor any service support elements."

Again this is in march-april.

[Great_Ajax]

You can always go down a rabbit hole when looking at the authorization tables and compare them with what was actually fielded.

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

A 10% allowance for going over historical numbers were built into the caps. There were some tank corps that never finalized formation that are also counted.

I dont think thats the reason for the different numbers. AFAIK only the 27th Tank Corps never finalized and was then converted to a Mechanized Corps. The current game allows for 29 TC, in reality the number should be 25. This is due to double counting, where you have 4 TC that were converted to MC but this number is added to both caps. Either lower the Mech caps to allow for higher TC caps or lower the Tank caps to allow for more Mech Corps.

10% of 25 should allow for 2 additional TC, not 4.

[Dreamslayer]

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

I'm using Sharp for my primary reference and he refers to an Independent Reconnaissance Company assigned directly to the corps hq. I have all of organization data I need for the recon company in the Motorized Brigade. I believe the Jul 42 OB version will transition from the recon company to the motorcycle battalion.

I'm not sure about Recon Company but I found this:
"Finally, on July 13, 1942, by NKO directive No. 726019ss, the tank corps included a guards mortar battalion, a reconnaissance battalion (shtat/TOE 010/389, 208 men total, 20 British APC "Universal" and 12 armored cars) and a motorcycle battalion (shtat/TOE 010/353, 287 men total). Thus, by mid-July, the formation of the "standard architecture" of the Soviet Tank Corps was completed, since subsequent changes to its structure were made only on December 22, 1942."
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/organisation/org_tk.html (in Russian)

Armored Recon Battalion (010/389):
20 APC "Universal", 12 BA, 208 men total
HQ and 3 Companies (3 platoons each)
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/organisation/s ... _barb.html (in Russian)

There is a other shtat/TOE for Armored Recon Battalion 010/289 (September 1942):
"By NKO Order No. 00186 of September 3, 1942, it was ordered during September to form 15 armored battalions (shtat/TOE 010/289) from two companies of BA-64 armored cars and a company of 7 T-70 tanks. These battalions were initially included in the Stavka's Reserve, and later were assigned to tank, mechanized corps as a means of reconnaissance.

In September 1942, the formation of armored battalions began in the Red Army, each of which, according to the shtat/TOE, consisted of two companies of BA-64 armored cars and a company of T-70 tanks, a total of 22 armored cars and 7 T-70s. Sometimes they could include cannon armored cars of pre-war construction, but according to the shtat/TOE they were not part of these battalions.

Staff number 010/289 (22 armored cars, 7 T-70 tanks, 112 men total).
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/organisation/s ... 9_bab.html (in Russian)

List of (separate) Armored Recon Battalions - http://tankfront.ru/ussr/obarb.html (in Russian)

As an example - TOE of 18 Tank Corps on 14 Dec 42 - https://cdnc.pamyat-naroda.ru/pamyat/&# ... 000049.jpg
There are 1st Sep. Recon Btn and 52nd Motocycle Btn .

[AlbertN]

Maybe I am in the wrong but I feel the issue is at the 'Macro' level.
Soviet production, troop quality, general might and how capable they're to min max their elite forces due to CPP / Assault HQ / Quickly Placed excellent leaders etc.

Then the talk goes down the 'Micro' as per 10% fluctuations of the Elite troops, or Recon Battallions. And for how the Micro-Fluctuations can be nice and niche, they won't really alter the general flow of the game.

[Lurberri]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN
Maybe I am in the wrong but I feel the issue is at the 'Macro' level.
Soviet production, troop quality, general might and how capable they're to min max their elite forces due to CPP / Assault HQ / Quickly Placed excellent leaders etc.

Then the talk goes down the 'Micro' as per 10% fluctuations of the Elite troops, or Recon Battallions. And for how the Micro-Fluctuations can be nice and niche, they won't really alter the general flow of the game.

It is possible that the imbalance that reflects that AAR between M60A3TTS and smokindave34 (and the game as it is currently structured) may be a issue at the 'Macro' level, yes, but of course it is NOT just a "10% fluctuations of the Elite troops".

If the Soviet can have no less than 16 Guard Tank Corps available as early as July 1942 (when in fact it did not get the first until December of that year and NEVER more than 12 in the entire war) we are not talking exactly about 10% more but something much more important ... and at a much earlier date than one might imagine. Does anyone imagine such tremendously powerful Soviet units practically in parallel with the development of "Blau"? Because I do not (and we are talking about a large number of "elite Tank Corps", not battalions precisely).

I do not think it is necessary to remember the succulent advantages that being an elite unit provides. In a game in which (along with the type of weaponry the unit has at its disposal) experience and national morale are the fundamental element of combat, having such shock power, and so soon, is something devastating and unbalancing.

[GibsonPete]

I am curious for the justification of providing the Soviets the massive dumps of manpower and AP's at various points of the Grand campaign.

[AlbertN]

What is specifically what I am argueing in general.
The Soviets have too much, are too operationally strong since early in the game, and the like.

[GibsonPete]

I agree AlbertN but I am curious as to why it was decided to include such tools for the Soviets. The Axis have nothing similar. Without these additional tools will the Soviets lose. If that was true then the game is flawed, and I for one do not believe it is flawed. So why was it included?

[AlbertN]

For all I know most of the strategy games are tested vs the AI and in function of removing bugs.
I have an amount of Matrix games and of other producers too - and in general any strategy game that wants to be viable in Multiplayer / PvP requires an amount of fine tuning and balance.

WITE2 is fresh and thus has an amount of 'flaws' for what concerns balance and the like. Exactly as it was the case in WITE1 - for all I remember at the beginning the were too Soviets dominating, with their capability to spam countless of engineers to fortify themselves -and- erase german forts. Things changed with patches over time.