War In the East 2 New Patch v1.02.11

[AlbertN]

I quite felt the latest Germany artillery effects underwhelming in general, not just some bits.

I am taking some time to compare the German vs Soviet artillery workarounds and numbers - for how I am not the best number-cruncher around!

[oldMarinePanzer]

I don't have the editor manual in my \Manuals folder either.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: oldMarinePanzer

I don't have the editor manual in my \Manuals folder either.

its in mine, so not sure why not showing for you - pretty sure that is off the patch not me transfering the pdf manually

[Denniss]

Inclusion of the WitW Editor manual was either forgotten or held back for a next release. Available there: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5098852

[oldMarinePanzer]

loki100 - thanks for your response, but it was the editor manual I was asking about and Denniss answered my question.

[jubjub]

ORIGINAL: EddyBear81

ORIGINAL: jubjub

It was a significant reduction in indirect disruption and improved results in our testing, but you'll need to try it to see how you like it.

Probably like it overall, it seems more dynamic than before, and fortifications and terrain seem to have a larger impact on combat and HPE than before.

However, the SIG33 guns seem to be nerfed too hard. They're barely doing anything on offense now. 50mm mortars have also dropped off the map, and are barely firing and almost always hitting 0 times in combat. The mortar issue was present in the last beta patch too.

These results are from about 30 combats in august of '41. A typical one is shown below with SiG's outperforming the average in this one.

How is it for "tougher" combats ? I can get that in a 1:8 combat in August 1941 (maybe a hasty attack ?), the 50mm do not get much action.

It's more like the Soviets were steamrolled by a marching army, with artillery batteries doing the long range work before Infantry does the mopping up.


It would be interesting to see how it goes for "hold" results, as well.

Same results.

[Erik Rutins]

For those parsing the details, it's worth noting what Joel said here as well:

fb.asp?m=5113814

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: jubjub

ORIGINAL: EddyBear81

ORIGINAL: jubjub



Probably like it overall, it seems more dynamic than before, and fortifications and terrain seem to have a larger impact on combat and HPE than before.

However, the SIG33 guns seem to be nerfed too hard. They're barely doing anything on offense now. 50mm mortars have also dropped off the map, and are barely firing and almost always hitting 0 times in combat. The mortar issue was present in the last beta patch too.

These results are from about 30 combats in august of '41. A typical one is shown below with SiG's outperforming the average in this one.

How is it for "tougher" combats ? I can get that in a 1:8 combat in August 1941 (maybe a hasty attack ?), the 50mm do not get much action.

It's more like the Soviets were steamrolled by a marching army, with artillery batteries doing the long range work before Infantry does the mopping up.


It would be interesting to see how it goes for "hold" results, as well.

Same results.

Are you getting any holds on any deliberate attacks, or only on hasties? Just wondering if deliberate attacks always work still. The thing about artillery in the previous beta patch is it seemed like it made deliberate attacks be pretty much guaranteed successes (and usually routs) for Germany, due to the effects of the artillery disruption.

I think it is probably good that the Soviet losses are toned down a bit, but hopefully it is not too much overcorrection so that historical losses are regularly achievable for the Axis and not like it was before the ground combat changes, where Soviets were always holding too easily.

[Erik Rutins]

In my testing with 1.02.11, I certainly saw holds even with Deliberate Attacks. Of course, it depends on a ton of other things and you can setup an overwhelming Deliberate Attack just as you always could.

[Stamb]

Looks like arty changes went too far

Motorized division with supply and ammo, low CPP points vs Brigade! in clear hex in lvl 1 fort. Also this is 2nd attack after first one was held vs another motorized division but with a hasty attack (1:1.8)

[Joel Billings]

A rifle brigade backed by a tank brigade and lots of artillery in the defense. Also one of the few Soviet generals that matches the German general. Even so you caused more losses and destroyed over half of the tank brigade. If the odds were 2 to 1 instead of 1.9 to 1 you would have done even better with the added retreat attrition. I really don't see an issue here, but not to say that you shouldn't keep watching many combats. The happy days of extremely overpowered artillery should be over, but I still think the system is much better than it was in 1.01.09.

[Stamb]

Well if all of the > 100mm guns (which i counted as 67, can be wrong) were able to disrupt ~100 men...
I think my first PvP game will end pretty quickly.
I am not asking for .06 arty power, but for a balance.

[Erik Rutins]

With all due respect, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by balance in this case.

Posting one plausible battle result and then asking for a change to the combat system is not really overwhelming evidence of an issue. Keep in mind that we're also testing and playing and have seen many battles across many turns with this update. We're currently happy with the balance. Artillery is still stronger than it was before the 1.02.06 changes and the balance should be good for both sides. Campaign results across many turns will really tell us whether we're right on that. There is far too much that goes into any one battle in this system to draw too many conclusions without a much larger base of information.

I'd personally like to see everyone set aside the tendency to jump to conclusions and give this update a very good and extended try.

Regards,

- Erik

[DeletedUser44]

Concur with Joel.

Just on review of number of elements ( 15676 vs 7552 ) puts it right at that 2-to-1 edge. So close that a leadership roll could easily bump this attack either way.

In fact, if you look at Attacker Combat Value ( 58 => 29 ), i think it is safe to say a roll failed somewhere.

When you compare the initial CVs ( 58 vs 51 ), it was going to require some favorable RND rolls to pull it off.

[cameron88]

It's not at all a 2 : 1 edge lol... It's a German motorized division vs a Soviet rifle brigade.. in 1941. It's ( 15676 vs 7552 ) and more importantly, 80 EXP/Morale vs what, 50.. max? So it's essentially 4 : 1 when you consider experience/morale, which means there's something wrong if that unit is consistently holding in testing.

[Gam3r]

ORIGINAL: cameron88

It's a German motorized division vs a Soviet rifle brigade.. in 1941.

You miss the Tank Bde and the fact that it is a Jul 1942

[Stamb]

Yep that's 1942, but first hasty attack with another motorized division failed horribly.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

With all due respect, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by balance in this case.

Posting one plausible battle result and then asking for a change to the combat system is not really overwhelming evidence of an issue. Keep in mind that we're also testing and playing and have seen many battles across many turns with this update. We're currently happy with the balance. Artillery is still stronger than it was before the 1.02.06 changes and the balance should be good for both sides. Campaign results across many turns will really tell us whether we're right on that. There is far too much that goes into any one battle in this system to draw too many conclusions without a much larger base of information.

I'd personally like to see everyone set aside the tendency to jump to conclusions and give this update a very good and extended try.

Regards,

- Erik

Of course i will continue to play and this is not my first battle, i don't want to make 30 posts about each battle. This is just what is happening after latest patch. I can understand that this new results might be wanted, and from my side i wanted to share some of them. Like Post #: 16. I have the same results of SIG 33 being almost useless.

I am not fan of any side (Axis or Soviets) but for me current artillery changes looks like over reaction to one topic on a forum where {country-name} has no playability now.
Hopefully there is no need to replace {country-name} with an Axis.

[DeletedUser44]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Yep that's 1942, but first hasty attack with another motorized division failed horribly.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

With all due respect, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by balance in this case.

Posting one plausible battle result and then asking for a change to the combat system is not really overwhelming evidence of an issue. Keep in mind that we're also testing and playing and have seen many battles across many turns with this update. We're currently happy with the balance. Artillery is still stronger than it was before the 1.02.06 changes and the balance should be good for both sides. Campaign results across many turns will really tell us whether we're right on that. There is far too much that goes into any one battle in this system to draw too many conclusions without a much larger base of information.

I'd personally like to see everyone set aside the tendency to jump to conclusions and give this update a very good and extended try.

Regards,

- Erik

Of course i will continue to play and this is not my first battle, i don't want to make 30 posts about each battle. This is just what is happening after latest patch. I can understand that this new results might be wanted, and from my side i wanted to share some of them. Like Post #: 16. I have the same results of SIG 33 being almost useless.

I am not fan of any side (Axis or Soviets) but for me current artillery changes looks like over reaction to one topic on a forum where {country-name} has no playability now.
Hopefully there is no need to replace {country-name} with an Axis.

You may be correct. I hope you have more examples to share in the near future.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: cameron88
It's not at all a 2 : 1 edge lol... It's a German motorized division vs a Soviet rifle brigade.. in 1941. It's ( 15676 vs 7552 ) and more importantly, 80 EXP/Morale vs what, 50.. max? So it's essentially 4 : 1 when you consider experience/morale, which means there's something wrong if that unit is consistently holding in testing.

I think you may have tuned out all the reasons for it to hold and only presented those in favor if it retreating. Also, one battle result does not consistency make.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Stamb
I am not fan of any side (Axis or Soviets) but for me current artillery changes looks like over reaction to one topic on a forum where {country-name} has no playability now.
Hopefully there is no need to replace {country-name} with an Axis.

Well, I hope so too and I also hope that players who prefer to play the Axis side do not overreact and make claims like that without good evidence. If you look at the last official update and then where we ended up across all the betas (which are a process of experimentation and testing) since the last official update, the net result is that artillery is stronger and combat down to the minute level is working better and results at the top level are also improved (compared to the betas).

We expect we can make more improvements over time and will do so. As Joel has explained, they have to be made carefully and with testing. In fact, I think given some of the negative reaction on the previous public betas, we need to be more careful than before as many folks don't really seem to see the betas as experimental.

In a game of this scope though, with all the variables involved, what you should be doing when you see a plausible battle like that which goes against you is writing a good historical story in your head about Vatutin's remarkable defense where he barely held on instead of looking for immediate balance changes.

I've played many battles with this update and will play many more and we will be reading feedback and AARs. Our only interest is in making sure from top to bottom that things are working as well and historically as possible, but we won't and can't jump every time someone questions a battle result, especially a plausible one.

Regards,

- Erik