Interception of Naval patrol

[Joel Billings]

Were these all A2A losses? There is a problem with flak in the air execution phase that we're working on now. I've seen some AS missions over Smolensk take very high flak losses, and I think the fighter tracks out to see that flew right over Odessa were taking some large losses as well in some of the saves I've been looking at. Those should be toned back by 60% or more in the next update.

[tyronec]

Were these all A2A losses? There is a problem with flak in the air execution phase that we're working on now. I've seen some AS missions over Smolensk take very high flak losses, and I think the fighter tracks out to see that flew right over Odessa were taking some large losses as well in some of the saves I've been looking at. Those should be toned back by 60% or more in the next update.

Pretty much all A2A, there was very little AA on the flight path.

I have been in a pretty air intense game since November. There has been lots of Air Naval Action but I haven't been seeing this. The Bf 109s fighters are generally ripping the Soviets apart in the air. Both of us have been using Air Superiority Air Directives over the Naval Patrol areas.

I can see that your battle above was over the Gulf of Odessa. What air bases are your fighters flying from, are they at the end of their range?

Also are you using Drop Tanks on your fighters?

EDIT: In post #6 above you have a fighter using SWEEP doesnt this mean it was loaded with bombs/fuel tanks and dropped them to take on the enemy fighters. If your entire fighter force is loaded up like that you are going to be at a disadvantage.

Will check if there are any fighters with drop tanks when I get the move back. Was certainly not my intention but maybe that is an explanation.

[Hardradi]

Bombs are just as bad for them. The Bf 109E-7s will definitely be at a disadvantage speed and climbing wise against the Yaks, maybe even the MiG 3s.

[tyronec]

Fighters on SWEEP.

I have check the AD and the air groups. There were no fighters with drop tanks or as bombers, all are fighter escorts. I have not specified any drop tank load outs at all during this game.

As I understand it fighters will only use drop tanks if they are specified, not if they are on Auto. Is this correct ?
Does SWEEP mean they were on drop tanks ?

Am wondering if there is something not working with the AD for this to happen as it looks the most likely explanation for these losses.

[Joel Billings]

Sweep doesn't have to do with drop tanks, but I don't remember what that means. I have a memory that it was in WitW. I almost think it was strafing runways, but I may be confused with something else. I have a vague memory of that being removed from WitE2, and I don't think I've seen it very much. I'll have to ask Gary/Pavel about it, but I don't think that's causing a problem here.

I don't know how auto works with drop tanks. Maybe Roger or one of the guys that does a lot with the air game can answer.

[Zovs]

I have seen SWEEP about 20% of the time, just not sure where it’s defined.

Grabbed this from the WITW living manual:

Fighter-bombers that are bombing may jettison their bombs and drop tanks and switch to “sweep” which simply
means they are becoming fighters trying to fight in A2A going after enemy fighters. This allows those fighters and fighter
bombers to engage enemy interceptors at full effect.

[Zovs]

That was 17.2

Here is the whole section:

Phasing player Air Group units return to staging base and then fly independently back to air base unit
Only fighters and fighter-bombers flying escort will drop the tanks when they have used them up during flight as a/c with
bombs and drop tanks cannot drop one without dropping the other (so they keep the drop tanks until they drop the
bombs). Fighter-bombers that are bombing may jettison their bombs and drop tanks and switch to “sweep” which simply
means they are becoming fighters trying to fight in A2A going after enemy fighters. This allows those fighters and fighter
bombers to engage enemy interceptors at full effect.

Air groups are broken down into smaller “flights” to resolve air missions, to include air to air combat and bombing runs.
Decision by fighters or fighter bombers to drop their drop tanks/bombs is made by flight. These flights can consist of 4-12 aircraft
So one part of an air group unit can switch to sweep while another keeps their drop tanks and press on with their escort miss ion
or, for fighter bombers, to bomb the target.

[Zovs]

Also 17.3.6 AS

or offensively as a fighter sweep type mission. They are a good way to support an amphibious invasion through the setup of an air superiority directive with a target area that covers both land and water hexes in the vicinity of the landing area. Air superiority flights can gain altitude when intercepting enemy raids or joining defensive battles. AS missions fly during both friendly and enemy phases.

[tyronec]

I don't know how auto works with drop tanks. Maybe Roger or one of the guys that does a lot with the air game can answer.

From what I have seen with T1 airbase bombing, fighters will only use drop tanks if you specify them.
If they are on auto load outs then they will not use drop tanks and bombing missions that are within drop tank range but outside normal range will go unescorted once they are beyond normal range.

AS I think can only be set up with extended range if you specify the drop tank load out.

I had assumed that was how it worked for all ADs, unless you specify drop tanks then they don't get used. But maybe that is not the case.

[Hardradi]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Fighters on SWEEP.

I have check the AD and the air groups. There were no fighters with drop tanks or as bombers, all are fighter escorts. I have not specified any drop tank load outs at all during this game.

As I understand it fighters will only use drop tanks if they are specified, not if they are on Auto. Is this correct ?
Does SWEEP mean they were on drop tanks ?

Am wondering if there is something not working with the AD for this to happen as it looks the most likely explanation for these losses.

I have been keeping an eye out for SWEEP and I have seen one battle where fighters switched to SWEEP. When I clicked on loadout nothing was listed. It appears it can happen without any loadout.

I am not 100% sure about drop tanks and auto so cant confirm either way.

Most of my naval patrols are working ok as the Axis but all of them are intermixed with Air Superiority directives from both sides.

I had one bad case where I flew one right out to end of range of the fighters. I watched the battle and the Bf 109s did not fire a shot.

[Zovs]

Searching through the Living Manual reveals that Sweep is still there.


18.1.7. Air Superiority
Part 4: The Air War
Aircraft assigned air superiority missions can intercept enemy air activity both on the way to and in their target area. Air superiority missions can be used defensively to protect a target area, or offensively as a fighter sweep type mission.

19.1. AIR MISSION SEQUENCE
19.1.1. General overview
6. Phasing player Air Group units return to staging base and then fly independently back to air base unit

Only fighters and fighter-bombers flying escort will drop the tanks when they have used them up during flight as a/c with bombs and drop tanks cannot drop one without dropping the other (so they keep the drop tanks until they drop the bombs). Fighter-bombers that are bombing may jettison their bombs and drop tanks and switch to “sweep” which simply means they are becoming fighters trying to fight in A2A going after enemy fighters. This allows those fighters and fighter bombers to engage enemy interceptors at full effect.

Air groups are broken down into smaller “flights” to resolve air missions, to include air to air combat and bombing runs. Decision by fighters or fighter bombers to drop their drop tanks/bombs is made by each such flight. These flights can consist of 4-12 aircraft So one part of an air group unit can switch to sweep while another keeps their drop tanks and press on with their escort mission or, for fighter bombers, to bomb the target.

37.1.2. Combat Resolution Window: General Info
The number of air missions and type (recon or bomb, escort, sweep, CAP) flown during the battle.

37.1.6. Air Combat:
MISSION: The mission the flight of aircraft conducted (RECON, BOMB, ESCORT, SWEEP, and PATROL).

[tyronec]

I have been keeping an eye out for SWEEP and I have seen one battle where fighters switched to SWEEP. When I clicked on loadout nothing was listed. It appears it can happen without any loadout.

How can you check the load out ?
I can't see it listed in the combat report.
If you look at the aircraft at their air base or on the commanders report and they are on auto I don't think that tells you what they use on a mission.

[Stamb]

Check air combat report

[tyronec]

Thanks, had never noticed the box at the bottom of the report.
That confirms, no load outs for the fighters.

[Hardradi]

Here are some stats from the logistics report from a recent turn (lastest Beta). Most of the air action is over Lake Ladoga in rain. Clashing Air Superiority and Naval Patrols on both sides.
Bf 109s did pretty good. The He-111s lost are dropping mines. There are a mass of battles so difficult to get a feel for it.







This was the worst battle from Axis perspective. Looks like the experience played a part.