TOTALLY OT: Football Weekend!

[Zovs]

I think reasonable salaries would work, but how to implement that is beyond my pay scale.

No offense to athletes or actors, but having a normal working salary like someone em modest like 200-500k per year would be better. I get not everyone can be an athlete or actor but not everyone can be a doctor or software engineer, but the pay should be fair and reasonable not crazy like 10, 20 or 100 million.

[Lokasenna]

Well, to that I would say... you and your millions of compatriots should stop watching the sports then, because the money for those salaries comes mostly from advertising dollars at its root (be that sponsorships of the teams or ads on the sports channels, which pay the teams lots of money).

Obviously, that's not feasible. But it's why salaries, especially for the best of the best, are inflated. There is a lot more media money sloshing around in the system now, especially on a per-team basis. It's a very rough measure, but US GDP today is about 4 times as high as it was in 1969, when MLB expanded to 24 teams. MLB is currently 30 teams - to keep pace with the "GDP-per-team" (and therefore, if you assume domestic commerce is roughly the same, available media dollars per team) MLB would need to have almost 100 teams in it. Even if you only go back to 1998 when MLB expanded to 30 teams, the US real GDP has increased by about 50%. That actually is a wild underestimate, as MLB total revenues have slightly more than doubled since 1998 (adjusting for inflation).

I'm fine with the top level salaries. If you're Mike Trout, possibly the best baseball player ever (not my opinion but some folks can make a reasonable argument) and certainly the best all-around player of his generation, you should absolutely be making the big-big bucks. The problem is that the salaries for the talent pipeline are extremely low and the incentives remain predatory and exploitative.

This is mostly the case across all the major sports.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: Edmon

ORIGINAL: Zovs

My biggest issue is with the players insane salaries. In the 1950s-1970s most barley made any money or at least not like how they do today. What gets me is a mid 20 year gets a 5 year contract for 100 million. Most mid 20s in my field would start off with 50k. If we offered them what the CEO makes it would be just as bad as pro football.

My wife and I do watch college football the salary for players is not there but sadly for the coaches to win it is.

…

This has really bothered me about British football, but also sport in general.

Best player in the world - 26m / year.
100th best - Barely paid enough to eat each day.

The pay scales are so disproportionate that the scene is really unhealthy for anyone who is not one of the worlds best players on one of the worlds best teams. You won't have much of a scene if 99% of the players decide to quit because they could be earning more working at McDonalds and it feels like that might become reality sooner rather than later.

A healthy scene needs level investment at all levels, but it's not been like that for a while now.

N.B. No-one is saying that an average player should be earning 26m / year, but "barely above minimum wage if that unless you make it to the very top" isn't exactly much of an incentive for kids to get into sport.

Your statement emphasised above discloses a fundamental misunderstanding of how sport in most* Commonwealth countries is organised. (*Not sure about Canada.)

First, in the main, most adults participating in organised sports are amateurs. They do so for the exercise, fun and social camaraderie, and often because they are good at it, although not always. They do not do it for money. They may actually pay their club a membership fee to fund it and help it operate. They don't do it to make money. Quite apart from that, I will let one of the UK posters here explain in greater the multi teared English football system, and how it is an inclusive sport that caters to all levels of ability, with those who are very good rising to the very top.

Secondly, I'm going to refrain from responding to your assertion about it being an unhealthy scene, and 99% quitting on payment grounds. I will merely say that as a former amateur rugby club player of many years at club level, not everything is about money, and playing rugby teams from the US over the years, I met a lot of like minded opponents who found it a very healthy and socially beneficial activity.

[Zovs]

For the States it’s much different, you have baseball, football and hockey (the only sports I played or know about) little leagues and you also have junior and high school sports, but they all cost money of some sort, as a kid in hockey I always got the cheapest used equipment cause that’s all my single mom could afford (I did not care I was able to get on the ice), and this was in the late 70s to early 80s. When my oldest son played baseball little league in the 90s it cost me $140 a year which was a lot to me back then since I was only making $12 an hour and had four kids to feed.

Here in the States for adults as far as I know it’s college kids that never made the big leagues in the amateur sports or those with lots of disposable income. It’s much too expensive for poor kids to get in unless they are the best of the best.

Anyway thanks for an intelligent discussion.

[Ian R]

I think it is unfortunate that sport is organised in a way that prices people out of even junior participation as you describe, but it is not the way it goes in many countries.

As an example I'll go to a young lad who was playing cricket - in India - at age 18 or so in the late 1990s. Mahendra Singh Dhoni, born 1980, to a struggling but not poor family. Living in Ranchi, India, and playing schoolboy football, he was sent over to the local cricket club by his football coach, where they kitted him out with the necessary second hand gear, and the coach used to slip him 50 rupee every time he hit one out of the park to help with his family's expenses. He was soon selected in a regional team, but, even so, he worked as a ticket collector on the local railway for a couple of years to make ends meet. Eventually he made the state, then Indian national team, and captained it, and is now worth an estimated net US$110m. He's obviously one of the very few who get to the top from a hard start, but many, many more get a similar chance.

Slightly on topic, when he was a kid he wanted to be a paratrooper. He is now the honorary colonel of the Indian territorial army 106th para regiment.

[Zovs]

I think in the US there is literally thousands of very talented athletes from poor families, my experience has been only a very few lucky and talented ones get a scholarship to a university and only a select few of those go on to professional level and really make it big.

I may be tainted now in my viewpoints buts it’s all about the Benjamins you can generate for the machine.

Music has also gone the same, imo.

[John 3rd]

Thank You Edmon and Erik. I was totally put off by the tone and decided to leave rather then engage. Greatly appreciate you guys and your work.

For the most part, this is why I rarely get on the Forum these days. Tone has really changed over the last 17-years of time. I know this is why several other old-timers have left or rarely appear anymore though I stay in contact with them.

Am sticking to my Mod work and matches with Lou and Paul and that is about it.

Thank you Guys!

[Edmon]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Thank You Edmon and Erik. I was totally put off by the tone and decided to leave rather then engage. Greatly appreciate you guys and your work.

For the most part, this is why I rarely get on the Forum these days. Tone has really changed over the last 17-years of time. I know this is why several other old-timers have left or rarely appear anymore though I stay in contact with them.

Am sticking to my Mod work and matches with Lou and Paul and that is about it.

Thank you Guys!

I honestly really dislike having to warn anyone, but you know, everyone has hobbies and things they are passionate about. Football is absolutely not my thing, but if I'd written a post about something I cared about just to try and make some friends and someone was chanting "Who Cares?"... I'd upset about it even if I wouldn't say anything to that affect.

I understand the rules have been, effectively, unenforced for a period of time. Just want to assure everyone that, that is no longer the case and anyone can PM me if they are being trolled and something will be done about it.

ORIGINAL: Ian R
Your statement emphasised above discloses a fundamental misunderstanding of how sport in most* Commonwealth countries is organised. (*Not sure about Canada.)

First, in the main, most adults participating in organised sports are amateurs. They do so for the exercise, fun and social camaraderie, and often because they are good at it, although not always. They do not do it for money. They may actually pay their club a membership fee to fund it and help it operate. They don't do it to make money. Quite apart from that, I will let one of the UK posters here explain in greater the multi teared English football system, and how it is an inclusive sport that caters to all levels of ability, with those who are very good rising to the very top.

Secondly, I'm going to refrain from responding to your assertion about it being an unhealthy scene, and 99% quitting on payment grounds. I will merely say that as a former amateur rugby club player of many years at club level, not everything is about money, and playing rugby teams from the US over the years, I met a lot of like minded opponents who found it a very healthy and socially beneficial activity.

If you want to make a career of football (or anything that is something you are passionate about for that matter), it's got to pay enough to cover things like: Food, Heating, Rent, etc. Things you absolutely cannot exist without. Of course people don't always chase certain careers because of the money, that's as true in the games industry as football, I run a youtube channel and I do it to promote TBS games, not because I want to make money out of it.

But if I wanted to do it full-time, it'd have to pay enough to keep me alive, at the very least. People who made it a career and got near the top saying it worked out great is honestly survivor bias. Lot of kids passionate about sport, work on developing their skills from a young age and when their parents decide to stop supporting them, they suddenly find they can't afford to exist and they haven't developed the skillset to do another career.

I know it's "the way of the world" in many industries but it's just particularly bad in sport.

[John 3rd]

Thank You Sir.

Appreciate several PM's that have arrived as well.

I just wanted to have some fun with forum people I know some--but not much--about. Great way to gain insight into our fellow forumites on something different from the game itself.

Have a good day all.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Thank You Edmon and Erik. I was totally put off by the tone and decided to leave rather then engage. Greatly appreciate you guys and your work.

For the most part, this is why I rarely get on the Forum these days. Tone has really changed over the last 17-years of time. I know this is why several other old-timers have left or rarely appear anymore though I stay in contact with them.

Am sticking to my Mod work and matches with Lou and Paul and that is about it.

Thank you Guys!

Welcome back! Hope all of you guys will come back! This forum is starting to feel like the good old days again!

And Roll Tide!

[LowesyPC]

Well decent football (soccer) in UK finished two weekends ago with the end of the Premier League. I support Newcastle and we went through the biggest down and up season probably in History. I am excited to watch football again. Don't get me wrong there is a lot of issues regarding the money involved with the club, but going back to points earlier that is the same for all professional Football now, Soccer and American Football.

This week some international games are on, and one of them is Scotland v Ukraine in the World Cup play-off semis. Being half Scottish I want Scotland to win. Yet its a lose/lose and a win/win game.(win/win) If Scotland win then through to the finals to play a fake country. But if they lose at least they can frame as it a overly emotional Ukraine digging into their emotins etc etc etc
(lose/lose) If Scotland lose no WC, and if they win they are the bad guys for beating the 'heroic' ukraine