End of the Japanese Empire?

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Bavre
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RE: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by Bavre »

ORIGINAL: DavidDailey

...What ifs are fascinating but if they are not played withing a reasonable historical context then the game should be retitled "Fantasy General".
I think that IP is already taken (and recently even had a reboot).
And what ifs are imho not per se bad, they can just lead to unforeseeable and therefore exploity situations. Any Brit suggesting a large scale invasion against Japan in 40 would probably have been shiped off to the loony bin and the suggested large drop in GB NM as a consequence is in my eyes a great idea to reflect that. Additional to the diplo fallout of course.
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RE: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by ElvisJJonesRambo »

I'd just let it go, for now. I like the action :)

The whole Pacific needs more action, better Island fighting, more combat, land supply, air battles, name it.

95% of games, the Pacific doesn't even matter, now it does.



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RE: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

I don't have an issue with the UK 'Pacific Gambit' per say..though it is a bit of a stretch. It's the erasure of Japanese units that are on the OOB and in the production que. Poof they go..at least in the locations that they are supposed to arrive at.

I guess you can argue that maybe the Japanese could have of garrisoned these island locations before hand, which is fine. But to place the scheduled units there means removal of the mentioned units by transport (on the islands at least), which may not be possible for a variety of reasons.

The way things stand with this UK Pacific Gambit play at the moment doesn't seem like a strategy play really. More like an exploit. I wouldn't want to see the UK (Allied) player restricted in try this strategy as long as the Japanese (Axis) player doesn't lose his units to a game mechanic ploy.

Like I posted before..a similar deal was fixed with SC-WW1 by Bill and Hubert.
Its was amusing though, that while we waited for the fix, how so many people started pulling the Montenegro Gambit-Wreck Russia exploit on unsuspecting players, mostly inexperienced. There were folks that didn't want to do MP matches after that.

There's my 3 cents for what its worth.


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RE: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by Elessar2 »

ORIGINAL: LoneRunner

o Restrictions on long-range transport invasions. No one should be able to launch invasions from 30-40 hexes away. Especially on a declaration of war. Imagine a few UK transports sailing into Tokyo harbor. You're all under arrest, haha. Besides large long range invasions were just was not feasible in WW2 until late in the war. Perhaps require amphib level 4.
o UK units should not be able to launch attacks on Japan from USSR unless USSR is at war with Japan.

Scripts can "detect" amphibious units very easily and automatically-a Mobilization one if too many UK amphibs try sneaking past Singapore (~40 hexes from Tokyo) would be one obvious remedy.
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RE: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by Laurenz »

Abusable game mechanics are a problem. Ahistorical strategies are not.

Nobody complains about Germany not investing anything into their war with the UK, not attacking the Island, nor the Colonies in Africa. Blind racism and a drive to take revenge for the humiliations of 1918 would have made that completely unfeasible in reality. Strategically, it is not absurd to think that in such a case the Empire would turn around and fight the other power threatening them in the East.

I agree that there should be penalties on US mobilization (although in reality they might see a chance to get rid of their upstart rival). However, I think there needs to be some form of counter play to a super focused German strategy in addition to an early D-Day.

TLDR: Strict historicism is a bad basis for game design, as games need meaningful choices to be fun. Exploits should be fixed.
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Re: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by LoneRunner »

Ouch, February 42 and the USA joined the Allies. I was hoping to delay USA entry into the war as long as possible.

USA mobilization was 70% until late 41. Without provocation by Japan or Germany, USA mobilization jumped significantly at the end of the year. My guess is that USA joining the Allies by early 42 is hardwired into the system regardless of circumstances.

I think USA entry into the war should be delayed if UK DoWs Japan and neutrals. Otherwise the mobilization hit on the USA is meaningless.
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Re: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by Jackmck »

Having tried this against Dmitri, there are some drawbacks. In short, a good Axis player will likely win a tactical victory in a tournament (1945) scenario should the Allies try this.

No game adjustments are needed. Axis players will adjust by placing garrisons in a few key positions and go hard against Russia. Unlikely the Allies will be able to wrestle back Moscow and take Berlin by 1945.

I recommend for the game designers to wait some more and allow players to test this out before making more changes.
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Duplicate post- delete

Post by Jackmck »

The new matrix forum system is glitchy and causing me to make duplicate posts. Is there a way I can delete my post (mistake)
Last edited by Jackmck on Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Duplicate post- delete

Post by Jackmck »

Same as above
petedalby
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Re: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by petedalby »

In my game vs DmitryN I was surprised by the Allied attack. Not realising the entire Royal navy was in the Pacific most of the IJN went down fairly quickly.

Japan held on until May 44 but even before it surrendered an awful lot was heading West. China DoW on Germany in Jan 44.

I pushed hard in NA & Russia but with the benefit of hindsight NA was probably a mistake. I thought US mobilisation would be harder hit but of course it wasn't.

It is now July 44. Strong Allied invasions have been made in France & the Low Countries. NA has been re-taken. Chinese troops & aircraft are in Russia. A Chinese amphibious assault is expected in Italy soon.

Germany has most of the main objectives in Russia but with 1 hex to go to Perm I don't think I'm going to make it. Or if I do Russia will not surrender.

I thought most ELO games went to 1947 so I'm not optimistic. If I played vs the same Allied tactics again there are alternative strategies I could adopt.

I remain of the opinion that there need to be harsher penalties on US mobilisation for Allied aggression - not just in the Pacific but anywhere. And there needs to be a fix to allow Japan's scheduled reinforcements to appear.

But it has been a most enjoyable and engaging game.
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Re: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by Jackmck »

Petedalby,

1. Tournament games will use the Race to Victory scenarios, and there is no reason a Race to Victory scenario cannot also be a ELO game. I'd prefer to practice for the tournaments- whenever the next one will be.

2. You won't be surprised next time and will take adequate countermeasures and be better able to exploit allied vulnerabilities should it adapt this strategy. As it is, you may be able to hold Berlin and Moscow until 1945 in your current game.
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Re: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by ThunderLizard11 »

Just had this new strategy deployed in latest game against Elvis. Will have t o see how it pans out. So far, US mobilizaton at 7% and Russia, China and UK on the march against Japan. Agree with proposed changes to make this less attractive as it's a total cheese. Like why ni Japanese units spawning like for later invasions and no option to deploy marines elsewhere?
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Re: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by petedalby »

I recommend for the game designers to wait some more and allow players to test this out before making more changes.
I take it you are the author of this strategy then Jackmck?

As others have already explained, the USA only went to war because of Pearl Harbour. The game should reflect that.

I suspect that would quickly put a stop to this gambit because the Allies can't win without the US.
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Re: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by ElvisJJonesRambo »

Thing is, this is a game. Must certain things happen, yet at the same time, give free will. Changing monster events, creates new rabbit holes. It's like John the Baptist. Did he really have free will as a descendant of Adam, yet known to be the forerunner what he was to proclaim before he was born. I believe free will and predestination are a point of view from a higher power. We're playing "Back to the Future". Are you Marty McFly or Biff? Biff had the sportsbook's magazine, McFly had destiny.

Ever see the movie (read the book) "Final Countdown". What would you do?
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Re: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by Chernobyl »

ElvisJJonesRambo wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:30 pm this is a game
I think the most fun history games are ones that let you do ahistorical things, but also present you with realistic consequences when you do so.

USA strongarmed the UK to tone down its imperialistic rhetoric during the war. Democracy and freedom would have been real hard sells not to mention the simple but critical feeling of 'we were attacked vs we attacked them' was responsible for so much (you can see this factor today in the Ukraine, if the news/propaganda is correct). Teaming up with an aggressor-UK doesn't match Roosevelt's rhetoric of peace and freedom-loving democracies united in defense against warmongering bully-imperialists. The America-firsters would have been in an absolute uproar if Roosevelt had asked congress to declare war on Germany Italy and Japan in solidarity with the UK's preemptive strike.

Roosevelt himself would have been livid at Churchill for this decision, and I could only speculate what actions he would have taken. Hitler would have been delighted, Goebbels would have written an ecstatic entry in his diary about Churchill's unforced error. Latin American countries, Turkey, Spain, all would have taken note: the Allies can't be trusted. The citizens of Hong Kong would have felt confused, doomed, betrayed. Draft riots in Canada. Australia might refuse to declare war. India would have been far less willing to provide. De Gaulle would be knocking on 10 Downing demanding answers. The mood in London would have been confused and gloomy, and the Japanese would have, if possible, felt even more determined.

Let the Allied side have the option to declare war early on Italy or Japan but the consequences to USA mobilization and world opinion should be significant. At least six months for the USA. This would probably involve not only a Mob hit for the USA, but a reduction of the per-month increase as well. Realistically, a morale hit too.
Last edited by Chernobyl on Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bavre
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Re: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by Bavre »

Chernobyl wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:53 pm
I think the most fun history games are ones that let you do ahistorical things, but also present you with realistic consequences when you do so.
Amen to that!
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Re: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by LoneRunner »

Chernobyl wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:53 pm
I think the most fun history games are ones that let you do ahistorical things, but also present you with realistic consequences when you do so.

Let the Allied side have the option to declare war early on Italy or Japan but the consequences to USA mobilization and world opinion should be significant. At least six months for the USA. This would probably involve not only a Mob hit for the USA, but a reduction of the per-month increase as well. Realistically, a morale hit too.
Excellent post Chernobyl. Yes, let's not stop ahistorical strategies. The key is to assign proper consequences of those actions.
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Re: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by Jackmck »

petedalby wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:41 pm
I recommend for the game designers to wait some more and allow players to test this out before making more changes.
I take it you are the author of this strategy then Jackmck?

As others have already explained, the USA only went to war because of Pearl Harbour. The game should reflect that.

I suspect that would quickly put a stop to this gambit because the Allies can't win without the US.
Yes I tried it first perhaps because I was tired of watching China get crushed game after game. Not exactly historical either.
Neither is for Japan to not garrison the home islands or anything else.

I think the US would have eventually gone to war even without Pearl Harbor, but much later. Certainly would not be able to win by Fall 1945.
The challenge for the Axis player is to beat history and survive past Fall 1945 with one other Allied capitol while the Allied challenge is to replicate historical outcomes. The game is pretty well designed for this as is, thanks to a lot of work and attention by the game designers. This strategy would be fun (and China would live) but if anticipated, the Axis can avoid early defeat rather easily by defeating or seriously weakening Russia and then holding out against the Western Allies.
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Re: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by Chernobyl »

Jackmck wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:36 am Neither is for Japan to not garrison the home islands or anything else.
There are too many reasons for Japan not to garrison those islands.
1) For one thing many of them may block units from spawning if you defend them with a garrison.
2) It costs MPP to ship units to the Gilberts or Marshalls.
3) You run the risk of your garrison being destroyed easily in low supply. It gives your opponent a target for their amphibious troops (they have to pay for amphibious troops anyhow to take your island base, now they get to use that free offshore attack).
4) There are far too many NM targets/bases for Japan to defend. If your opponent sees you have a garrison on one island and they don't have enough forces/tech to take it out, they can just take another NM island. Doesn't really benefit to defend Tarawa when your opponent can just move straight to Saipan Naha or Japan itself. If you place anything more expensive than a garrison on a hex like Eniweitok, the ALlied player might as well ignore it, knowing it's a wasted unit.

In fact, there should probably be a system of progression across the Pacific. Historically the Allies took the Marshalls in order to prepare for taking the Marianas. Partly for aircover and I believe partly also for logistical reasons.

Perhaps there should be some system where unless the Allies control the Marshalls they get a Malta-like supply problem in the Marianas? Perhaps the NM objectives should only trigger if islands are taken in succession? E.g. once you take Saipan then NM objectives appear on Iwo Jima and Naha? Perhaps the atomic bomb event should require control of the Marshalls and the Marianas to guarantee safe supply routes for the bomb?

Crazy idea: long range amph transports should lose their "free" attack from the sea ability (or weaken it compared to short range)?
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Re: End of the Japanese Empire?

Post by LoneRunner »

Dmitry and I decided to provide an AAR of our "End of the Japanese Empire" game.

It's an interesting and exciting game. A little over a year after the UK invasion the game is still on the edge and could go either way. Both sides are full offense, UK/USA/China on Japan and Germany on Russia. And it's a coin toss who's going down first.

We plan to make the AAR informative and fun. And you are encouraged to post your comments and ideas.

The game is in the AAR section of this forum.
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