The sequel of the legendary wargame with a complete graphics and interface overhaul, major new gameplay and design features such as full naval combat modelling, improved supply handling, numerous increases to scenario parameters to better support large scenarios, and integrated PBEM++.
golden delicious wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:02 pm
Apart from anything else, how do you get the Russian player to assume there'll be no resistance on turn 1?
Not that I disagree with the general thrust of your points, but as a thought experiment:
If there were a way to implement a shock penalty while suppressing reporting of that penalty, you could give the Ukrainians a variable shock penalty(make the range wide, maybe a non-uniform distribution) so that there's a chance that the Russians have a significant advantage and can shift the scenario in their favor over the long-term if they do the real-life all-in strategy.
WeirdBumperSticker wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:21 pm
Not that I disagree with the general thrust of your points, but as a thought experiment:
If there were a way to implement a shock penalty while suppressing reporting of that penalty, you could give the Ukrainians a variable shock penalty(make the range wide, maybe a non-uniform distribution) so that there's a chance that the Russians have a significant advantage and can shift the scenario in their favor over the long-term if they do the real-life all-in strategy.
Well, if the Russian expectations had been correct, then we wouldn't have much of a scenario- in essence it seems that it was supposed to be just a matter of moving on the key points and occupying as they did in Crimea in 2014.
Sort of like Denmark 40. No-one is going to make that scenario: it's one turn and only the Germans have any units.
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golden delicious wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:25 pm
Well, if the Russian expectations had been correct, then we wouldn't have much of a scenario- in essence it seems that it was supposed to be just a matter of moving on the key points and occupying as they did in Crimea in 2014.
I wonder about that-it just beggars belief that they would have thought they could recreate 2014, against a Ukrainian army that is an order of magnitude(and then some) larger than it was in 2014 and has eight years of combat experience under its belt. But you never know. I remember thinking myself(prior to the invasion) that it didn't seem like much of a scenario.
Anyway, my thinking is that you might be able to incentivize a Russian player to behave historically in the early days by creating the possibility that the Ukrainians are unusually ineffective during that period, even if the Russian player knows that the floor is 10 or 20 out of 100 and not zero.
Alternatively, you could just begin in medias res on day 2 or 3 or whatever.
Alternatively, you could just begin in medias res on day 2 or 3 or whatever.
This is one possibility, another is that the Russian Player will lose on Turn 1 if they don't do something. I think Bob did something like that in his N. Africa scenario to force the Italian Player to make an attack that they knew they would lose. and there is a third possibility but I can't think of it right now
Are Javelins correctly simulated in the game? I mean in term of kill ratio.
Did anybody try to simulate the clash of a T-72 tank column with trucks versus 50 guys with few Javelins ?
I am curious of the outcome in the game.
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Almost forgot I had posted the original question. Just checked. Interesting discussion in the thread. To me the development of the game would be a case of learning (ORBATs and campaigning at the operational level) and seeing if we can do as well as the Ukrainians or as poorly as the Russians.
Given that there didn't seem to be a modern Ukrainian scenario for TOAW, I went ahead and began developing one, although I am far from an experienced scenario developer. So far I have done the following:
- I borrowed a map from one of the WWII scenarios (which I don't really like as I would have preferred a more detailed one);
- Built ORBATs for both the Russians (to formation level, ie Brigade/Regiment so 155 formations) and Ukrainians (to unit level,ie battalion so 425 units). ORBATs were based on internet research from Wiki, media, etc;
- Developed a General Defence Plan for the Ukrainians and deployed those units based on a few years of military experience; and
- Created a campaign plan for the Russians which has essentially been confirmed. In other words, what I developed has essentially come to pass. So, formations have Objectives and Tracks that we know have happened. I may not have the right Combined Armed Armies going to the various objectives but it is in the ballpark.
A question though. I don't want the Ukrainians entering Russian territory, so they only fight a defensive battle (Principle of War, never invade Mother Russia lol!). How do I set Objectives for the Ukrainians? Do I still have to provide Objectives for each formation when I don't want them to go anywhere? Can I not just set general Objectives, ie the various cities but not associated with Ukrainian formations?
Next step in the game development will be to create NATO forces that will be triggered by Event(s). For example, Russia uses nukes or attacks into a NATO nation. Heck NATO forces might even include Sweden and Finland. I will also probably develop Russian mobilized forces that come into play in much later turns and other Russian forces deployed farther afield (ie on the border of the Baltic nations). So lots to do and I only get around to this infrequently.
Anyone can answer that Objectives question, would be of immediate assistance.
Do I still have to provide Objectives for each formation when I don't want them to go anywhere? Can I not just set general Objectives, ie the various cities but not associated with Ukrainian formations?
Objectives are associated with formations.
One can assign victory points to various cities and so forth.
I don't want the Ukrainians entering Russian territory
For the PO - Two possible suggestions, Example 1 - If you want a formation to defend Kharkiv, give that formation one or more objectives solely at Kharkiv [pictured at left]. Example 2 - Lock units in position by assigning them Garrison Orders. There are also other less severe Orders such as Static or Hold.
If you want to keep the humans out of specific areas, you could use 'Occupies' Events to invoke a penalty if units move into them. These Events allow a radius, allowing for large areas to be monitored.
Much appreciated! I did post the following question on the general forum but can you import a developed ORBAT (900 + units) from one scenario to another? Steve Sills has done a fantastic job on the Ukraine scenario but I think I can take the ORBATs to the next level. Don't really fancy doing it from scratch.
