TXX Events

[Graymane]

The only issue with the Pripyat avenue is that you can't really go off the road easily. I think your way could work as well. I sent the panzers via Ivatsevichi -> Lyakkovichi -> Slutsk with eng/leg infantry Kobryn -> Luminets and up. Didn't bother with rail, the real goal going that way for me to get to the Dneiper crossings. Visualize: Mogilev -- Bykhov -- Rogachev -- Zhoblin -- Rechista (and Gomel).

You can get there much faster than in the south via Kiev (AGS) and you are then secured. It also doesn't require much to hold it since you are behind a super river line.

Meanwhile in the north, you just drive Polotsk --> Nevel --> V. Luki. This will secure AGN southern flank near the Lovat and also allow a vast pincer meeting at the line Vitebsk -- Orsha cutting off many, many divsions east of that line around Minsk.

I wasn't sure how viable this strategy was with the stock D21 without all the extra RR in the HQs so I thought I try it out.

[larryfulkerson]

It's still early in T3 and I've moved only a few units but a lot has changed that you might want to know about. I've captured a crossing over the river, which is fortunate because the Soviets have already garrisoned Daugavpils which is my favorite crossing. I'm going to have to push some troops to the east side of the river and use some of them to help force the Daugavpils crossing. As well as clear out the east side of Riga. There's a couple of Soviet aircraft units parked near the road leading to Riga and I've brought up some arty to do airfield strikes to kill as many of them as possible. I've considered killing all but about 10% and then letting them rot there in reorg, meanwhile Elmer keeps shipping planes to the unit giving me more targets. I usually make the mistake of eliminating the entire unit and the killing bonanza ends. I'll try not to do that this time because this seems a good way to get rid of a lot of Soviet planes.

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[larryfulkerson]

The only issue with the Pripyat avenue is that you can't really go off the road easily. I think your way could work as well. I sent the panzers via Ivatsevichi -> Lyakkovichi -> Slutsk with eng/leg infantry Kobryn -> Luminets and up. Didn't bother with rail, the real goal going that way for me to get to the Dneiper crossings. Visualize: Mogilev -- Bykhov -- Rogachev -- Zhoblin -- Rechista (and Gomel).

You can get there much faster than in the south via Kiev (AGS) and you are then secured. It also doesn't require much to hold it since you are behind a super river line.

Meanwhile in the north, you just drive Polotsk --> Nevel --> V. Luki. This will secure AGN southern flank near the Lovat and also allow a vast pincer meeting at the line Vitebsk -- Orsha cutting off many, many divsions east of that line around Minsk.

I wasn't sure how viable this strategy was with the stock D21 without all the extra RR in the HQs so I thought I try it out.

All that sounds like a really good idea. I'll see what I can do along those lines. I'm like you, I don't think I would try that with the stock D21.

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[larryfulkerson]

This is just after the first combat round and I've used some engineers to establish some crossings near Riga and managed to capture an intact crossing a little further south. To the west the security forces are clearing out the west coast and have started north into the peninsula. I'm using the 1st Panzer Division and the SS Div Totenkopf Division to spearhead the push into Riga and it looks like they will sack Riga either this turn or the next. Supply levels are in the mid-20's at the tip of the spear.

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[larryfulkerson]

This is a little south of the above image and you can see how I'm attempting to clear a path to the river and see about setting up some crossings with my engineers to stream some units across the river to get on the east side of the Dagavpils crossing to help the take down of the Dagavpils defenders, a small Soviet paratroop unit.

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[larryfulkerson]

This is what it looks like to the west of Minsk right now. I did a second drop of some paratroopers to capture roads and rails and airfields in the Soviet backfield. I'm about mid-way through the marshes already and expect to emerge on the east side either this turn or the next. A couple of my Panzer divisions are running out of gas and need rest and refit. The source of Axis supply is now the railhead which is approaching Minsk from the SW.

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[larryfulkerson]

This is just south of the marshes and shows how I'm trying to surround a smallish group of Soviet units before they can retreat to Kiev, just offmap to the east. I'm going to need a few more troops to close off the escape routes. Meanwhile other units are pushing to the SE. Supply levels are great so far.

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[larryfulkerson]

This is what is going on with the south flank. I'm surrounding a small group of Soviet units so I can kill them at my leisure with my follow on forces. Several Hungarian units have activated so I'm using them to clear out the mountain passes.

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[golden delicious]

This is interesting; https://www.hgwdavie.com/blog/2018/3/9/ ... r-19411945

The article is a REALLY deep dive on the Russo-German rail line topic, saying it was managing the flow issue, not a physical lines issue;

Apparently, the front wasn't sending empty cars back fast enough - violating American military railroad expert Herman Haupt's 2 rules; the military should never interfere with the efficient running of the railroad and that rolling stock should be emptied and returned promptly to enable their re-use as transport.

"By the conclusion of the Smolensk battle in early August, it is clear that the supply situation was under strain, and despite over a month’s pause in operations, there were insufficient supplies to carry the units forward to Moscow. The underlying problem was clearly identified by General Halder on 3 August 1941 as being the Eisenbahntruppen conflict of interest, between building low-capacity lines quickly behind the advancing armies or building high-capacity lines capable of supporting Generalquartiermeister Wagner in his objective of building up a Supply District behind each Heerengruppe. [...]"

That's fascinating. I'd suggest that, as TOAW doesn't have the capability to model rails of different capacity, that the low capacity rails be reflected with road transport instead.

One could even have an option for the Axis player: reduce supply radius and boost RR repair, to reflect this dilemma between bringing the base of supply forward versus supporting the spearheads in isolation. Ideally you'd want this to be handled with a perpetual event cycle so that the player can switch between the two options, but that would clash a bit with the other mechanics in the scenario since these variables are set by absolute events instead of +/- like force supply

[larryfulkerson]

This is interesting; https://www.hgwdavie.com/blog/2018/3/9/ ... r-19411945

The article is a REALLY deep dive on the Russo-German rail line topic, saying it was managing the flow issue, not a physical lines issue;

Apparently, the front wasn't sending empty cars back fast enough - violating American military railroad expert Herman Haupt's 2 rules; the military should never interfere with the efficient running of the railroad and that rolling stock should be emptied and returned promptly to enable their re-use as transport.

"By the conclusion of the Smolensk battle in early August, it is clear that the supply situation was under strain, and despite over a month’s pause in operations, there were insufficient supplies to carry the units forward to Moscow. The underlying problem was clearly identified by General Halder on 3 August 1941 as being the Eisenbahntruppen conflict of interest, between building low-capacity lines quickly behind the advancing armies or building high-capacity lines capable of supporting Generalquartiermeister Wagner in his objective of building up a Supply District behind each Heerengruppe. [...]"

That's fascinating. I'd suggest that, as TOAW doesn't have the capability to model rails of different capacity, that the low capacity rails be reflected with road transport instead.

One could even have an option for the Axis player: reduce supply radius and boost RR repair, to reflect this dilemma between bringing the base of supply forward versus supporting the spearheads in isolation. Ideally you'd want this to be handled with a perpetual event cycle so that the player can switch between the two options, but that would clash a bit with the other mechanics in the scenario since these variables are set by absolute events instead of +/- like force supply

I really appreciate you posting this info. This would explain the serial supply shortages experienced at the Axis front lines. I like your ideas about how to model this. You're worth your weight in gold.

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[Cpl GAC]

I'm curious to hear from scenario designers if that article's information shed new light on Russo-German WW2 supply and how vital the rails were; whether it has you thinking about modeling a new approach, or, it confirmed your existing design approach.

Is this topic worth it's own thread?

[golden delicious]

I'm curious to hear from scenario designers if that article's information shed new light on Russo-German WW2 supply and how vital the rails were; whether it has you thinking about modeling a new approach, or, it confirmed your existing design approach.

Is this topic worth it's own thread?

I don't design East Front scenarios but I think the answer to your question is Yes

[larryfulkerson]

Here's what happened in turn 3. I haven't yet captured Riga which is a small disappointment.

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[larryfulkerson]

Here's where everything is at the beginning of T4 and I've annotated the proposed axises of advance. I'm planning on pushing through Riga and continue north along the coastal road. I also want to get the drive started toward Pskov with my Panzers. I also want to capture Dagavpils. Another short term goal is to start the surround on Minsk going. To the west of Kiev there's a rudimentary Soviet front line that I'd like to surround and clear out. I'm going to get the Romanians started on moving east toward Odessa and clearing out the Bessarabian territory. The supply levels are great all over the map so far. I've lost 2.3K HRS's, there's 31.6 HRS's assigned, and there's 2.8K HRS's on hand.

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[larryfulkerson]

Here's what happened in turn 4. I captured Riga and actually got a couple of units started heading north along the coastal road. I captured several crossings over the river and made some progress just north of the marshes. I'm about half way through the marshes and made some significant progress just south of the marshes. Down south I've pushed the Stalin Line defenders backward and cleared out the north end of the mountain range. The Romanians captured two river crossings just west of Odessa and I'm optimistic about what will happen in T5.

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[larryfulkerson]

This image shows where everything is on T5 before I have moved anybody. I've annotated the proposed Axis axis of advance. I'm not certain but I'm guessing that I might be able to get a good surround started on Minsk this turn.

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[Graymane]

I'm curious to hear from scenario designers if that article's information shed new light on Russo-German WW2 supply and how vital the rails were; whether it has you thinking about modeling a new approach, or, it confirmed your existing design approach.

Is this topic worth it's own thread?

I'm not a scenario designer, but I do work for a major railroad. I don't believe that TOAW models the complexity of railroads, which is probably a good thing. But Golden Delicious proposed a way to model it a few replies ago which would seem to give a really good way to do it with the existing rules.

[Cpl GAC]

2 things;

Larry - are you going to take Odessa with only Rumanian forces?

Graymane - yes - that's my point; using the existing game mechanics, can an existing scenario design be "bent" to more accurately reflect the realities (I've never played EF 41-45 but Fabio seems to have really used a lot of the underutilized options and settings) without making it too rail involved (...I already play with the air assistant on...). Things like model Soviet supply radius/auto rail repair/reducing rail destruction chances get progressively better each year or Supply Depots behind pending offensive fronts (similar to TGW 41-45 use of Front HQs to buttress an offensive) like D21's and Russo-German's German Supply Columns.

[larryfulkerson]

Here's what happened in T5. The security forces in the peninsula have wrapped up the mop up operations in the peninsula. Only one more bridge to fix and it'll be better than brand new. I'm repairing the rails and everything. And east of Riga an armoured regiment has disappeared offmap to the north and I've gotten almost everybody else across the river and neaded NE to rush to Pskov as fast as possible.

Any turns greater or equal to this one will have no more air allocation so I can't do any more paratroop drops.

The air losses meter said I lost 47 aircraft and the Soviets alledgedly lost 390 and I'm hopeing that is the last of them because I'm itching to do some bridge strikes.

The Soviets received a raise in shock values: 95% ground and 50% air. My shock values are 115% ground and 140% air.

I've captured all the crossings near Riga I've managed to get a surround started on Minsk and I'm reaching the east edge of the marshes and will soon be in the much better terrain. I've run into some pretty stout Soviet resistance at the Stalin Line down south and it's going to probably take several turns to liquidate all that Soviet equipment. The Hungarians have cleared out most of the mountain hexes and the Romanians have captured all the crossings in Bessarabia and they are slowly pushing the Soviet units backward. The supply levels are great everywhere across the map. I've lost 3.7 HRS's, there are 30.8 HRS's assigned and 4.1 HRS's on hand.

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[larryfulkerson]

Larry - are you going to take Odessa with only Rumanian forces?

That IS my plan. You have a better idea, I can hear it in your voice. I was going to back up a couple of Romanian divisions with all the arty the Romanians have and bludgen my way through the defenders. You have a better idea? I'd love to hear it.

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