V2, you can keep Helga. (shiver)
Frank, it's not about realism to me. It's more about a level playing field (I hope that metaphor translates across cultures). I just want to have the same "mind set" in the battle setup that my opponent does. That way, we both know what to expect.
The games I've played that haven't been fun have been the one's where I've felt like I was blind sided (extreme examples abound in the Forum: 80% arty, all US Rangers, 50% airstrikes, etc.) Those games are fun for the guy who crushes his opponent (I suppose), but it will certainly be the last game played against that opponent. Some good players (and when I say "good" I mean one's that you play that don't make you feel like you've been taken advantage of (e.g V2) even though you may lose the battle) have left the Forum because some people want to win at any cost (i.e. even if their reputation suffers). V2 has even said he may withdraw from the World Cup because the rule negotiating is getting too complicated. (Although, it is all the more satisfying when you crush someone that pulls tricks on you!)
It's all about having equal expectations.
Purchasing
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
it's all about comms!!
It comes down to deceiding prior to playing what limitations each player wants, this is by communicating those wishes to the other player.
Personally, I feel that as a commander YOU have NO choice as to what forces your enemy fields.... Can't you imagine the parlay prior to battle (Warning this is in jest):
"I say old chap i'm feeling a bit stuffed today, would you mind only attacking with your Volksgrenadiers and telling the skyboys to have a day off. Oh and while your at it please don't send any of those nasty Kats my way either. Cheers"
I like to feel that the forces I buy can deal with most (all?) that my opponent has. So I try to have some units for specific purposes, ie AA, AT, Arty, maybe air, recon (including infiltrators), inf, arm, etc etc etc. AND if he has silly purchases (as mentioned previously) then I feel all the better if I win against him and not so bad if I lose! Remember that it is only the infantryman who can HOLD ground, arty and air can take it but they can't hold it, a physical presence (inf) can.
BUT, I do understand and will comply if an opponent wants to play say a recreation of a particular battle (or element thereof) and use only historical forces (ie know what you are up against). These are fun too but obviously can be unbalanced as well.
regards
Personally, I feel that as a commander YOU have NO choice as to what forces your enemy fields.... Can't you imagine the parlay prior to battle (Warning this is in jest):
"I say old chap i'm feeling a bit stuffed today, would you mind only attacking with your Volksgrenadiers and telling the skyboys to have a day off. Oh and while your at it please don't send any of those nasty Kats my way either. Cheers" I like to feel that the forces I buy can deal with most (all?) that my opponent has. So I try to have some units for specific purposes, ie AA, AT, Arty, maybe air, recon (including infiltrators), inf, arm, etc etc etc. AND if he has silly purchases (as mentioned previously) then I feel all the better if I win against him and not so bad if I lose! Remember that it is only the infantryman who can HOLD ground, arty and air can take it but they can't hold it, a physical presence (inf) can.
BUT, I do understand and will comply if an opponent wants to play say a recreation of a particular battle (or element thereof) and use only historical forces (ie know what you are up against). These are fun too but obviously can be unbalanced as well.
regards
Regards
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Gary Tatro
- Posts: 1200
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2002 10:00 am
- Location: MA, US
Um RB this was the agreement in our 4 player game
Air-2 section each player (4 planes per player 8 per side)Originally posted by rbrunsman
Either way you look at it (air as arty or air as a separate class), I think it is good form to state your intentions to buy air sections. Since many people don't like them (me included!), it is quite annoying to think they are not going to be there and to then be pounded by them over and over without being able to reciprocate. (V2 and Gary are doing this to me now in two separate PBEMs)
No pre-laid mines.
Infiltrators 2 platoons(groups) per person 4 platoons per side still a lot.
No air drops by player one on pre-deployment.
Reinforcements-Can call after turn 7
All preferences on except C&C and Rarity.
8k per player
SIDE 1 (us) any allied nation
SIDE 2 (you) any bad guy nation
5/45
both players per team my NOT use the same nation
100x160 map random, summer, noon, LOS 35
25 turns
I did the purchaseing and I know that we did not go over these limits. Certain planes keep coming back each round if they have not expended thier ammunition or are hit by a ground unit. These are aircraft ground specialists. So my aircraft keep coming back because they are not being hit or shot down.
"Are you going to do something or just stand there and bleed"
hhhhhheeeeeeellllllpppppppp I've been hijacked!!!! Only kidding.....
Guess all this discussion about deciding up front with you opponent is bound to appear in a post about purchasing. I have occassionally chosen "silly" purchases (ask V2 about me sending 1 platoon of gliderborne infantry & 4 gliders behind his lines - lost all of them the next turn - ask Beserk about me fielding a side dominated by 17lber ATGs and airborne infantry against late Germans!). I guess it is up to the individuals playing PBEM to stipulate #air units (does this include gliders & dakotas) and #infiltrators (does this include airborne).
I have seen a PBEM request sheet which someone could fill in, post somewhere and wait for someone to pick up & play - or maybe more of a "league system" with specific rules and where everyone plays everyone and gets 3 pts for a points win (margin >1000 pts), 1 pt for a draw (same points +/- 1000 pts) and 0 points for a loss - come on even American Football specifies you can have 16 teams on the pitch at once with 30 players built like the preverbial brick privvies (thats olde english for toilet for our colonial cousins
)., that a match that in realtime lasts 80 minutes in actual time takes 4 days to complete.......real war is all about intelligence, using that intelligence wisely and ensuring you have a good chance of winning which ever engagement is in the offing......
hope noone is offended but thought, as I am on vaccation from today, I would add an interesting post!!!!!
Guess all this discussion about deciding up front with you opponent is bound to appear in a post about purchasing. I have occassionally chosen "silly" purchases (ask V2 about me sending 1 platoon of gliderborne infantry & 4 gliders behind his lines - lost all of them the next turn - ask Beserk about me fielding a side dominated by 17lber ATGs and airborne infantry against late Germans!). I guess it is up to the individuals playing PBEM to stipulate #air units (does this include gliders & dakotas) and #infiltrators (does this include airborne).
I have seen a PBEM request sheet which someone could fill in, post somewhere and wait for someone to pick up & play - or maybe more of a "league system" with specific rules and where everyone plays everyone and gets 3 pts for a points win (margin >1000 pts), 1 pt for a draw (same points +/- 1000 pts) and 0 points for a loss - come on even American Football specifies you can have 16 teams on the pitch at once with 30 players built like the preverbial brick privvies (thats olde english for toilet for our colonial cousins
)., that a match that in realtime lasts 80 minutes in actual time takes 4 days to complete.......real war is all about intelligence, using that intelligence wisely and ensuring you have a good chance of winning which ever engagement is in the offing......hope noone is offended but thought, as I am on vaccation from today, I would add an interesting post!!!!!
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Frank W.
- Posts: 1040
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my worst experience was a opp. who had a company ( or more ) of panther g uhu´s.
in the past i seldom bought heavy arty, but i must admit this was a mistake as 120mm + above are the real killers. all smaller guns are good f. supression but not killing..
btw: gary + rbrunsman: we haven´t played yet i think. we should change that in the near future.....
in the past i seldom bought heavy arty, but i must admit this was a mistake as 120mm + above are the real killers. all smaller guns are good f. supression but not killing..
btw: gary + rbrunsman: we haven´t played yet i think. we should change that in the near future.....
Just an opinion
As much as it pains me to do so, I’m going to have to agree with RB in his overall assessment that air should count toward your artillery assets. But not for the exact reasons he posts.
Army (US) Air is a separate branch, granted. It’s not officially part of the “Artillery”. However, as a ground-pounder, when briefing an OPORD, my “indirect fire assets” portion included both whatever arty they told us we’d have and what air assets. All were classified as indirect fire support. Of course your FO (if you’re lucky enough to have one of these guys assigned to you, it MAKES a mission IMO, ok, so I’m not so fond of having to call it in myself :p) is the best person to coordinate the actual call for fires, once you plan your original targets, and determine where you need it once you’ve made contact.
When purchasing arty, despite the fact that they’re listed on the “Miscellaneous” page, I’ve always included any air strike elements (bombers/fighter-bombers/ground-attack aircraft) in my Artillery totals. What I do NOT include are air transport assets.
Reason I don’t agree wholly with RB is because I don’t particularly dislike air assets. I don’t find them as a huge crutch for opponents, as my core force usually contains some AA assets anyway (because of what they do to infantry *shudders*). I think their use is limited for all their well-known flaws (shooting up friendly AFVs/troops, collateral damage), but personally I’d love to call in some BF-110’s (IIRC) to take out a battery of Russian rockets parked on an ammo dump. The splash damage is great against massed infantry as well, or ATGs.
And if I had a vote, I’d say that Airborne are not “infiltrators”, as someone asked above. They’re infantry, and if you’re playing with “C&C” on, I don’t see why anyone would limit even the number of air-droppable units. If you mis-drop these guys, it’s easy to get them routed and cleaned up in short order, and they’re kind of pricey. Don’t most players keep a “clean-up” or “reserve” force in the rear to handle any partisans or airborne troops? “Infiltrator” troops are those that you can assign infiltration missions to in the set-up phase with the command button (Special Ops, Partisans, Rangers). I do find it odd that you can air-drop non-airborne units. The only consequence seems to be high suppression when they land. I’d prefer to see a change where engineer or ski troops which are air-dropped have a high chance of incurring damage to each squad (broken ankles/legs/arms, or tree landings) to discourage such historically inaccurate tactics. Sure, glider them in, but don’t drop them.
And I’ll also respectfully disagree with Frank W, in that most people want fun, not realism. I disagree with the premise that they’re mutually exclusive. I think if you stay somewhat realistic (not buying a force that’s made only of Air, ATGs and infiltrators for example), a “well-rounded” force makes a battle both semi-historical and fun.
Limits? Other than remaining relatively realistic (which includes no pre-laid mines in a meeting engagement), I’m not big on them if it’s a “random” setup. If the other fellow spends 50% his points on arty, and any of it is on-board, wouldn’t a well-placed infiltrator or 2 enable you to effectively counter-battery/nullify his arty advantage? And eventually, OB assets run out. I’m yet to play a huge PvP battle against an enemy using tons of arty, so I guess I’m naïve there. My ground infantry are typically mech though, and Arty’s only horribly bad if you’re sitting still, unluckily crossing one of his pre-planned targets, or he’s the U.S. with those insane response times. I will usually purchase one section of large, long-range guns specifically for counter-battery fire. And if you’re playing “random” settings (weather/TOD?) then Air shouldn’t be an issue anyway. If a guy wants to roll the dice that he’ll be able to fly and buy a ton of air, let him. Could work out in your favor. But if your battle time-frame is in late ’44, and you’re playing the U.S. against Germany, if your opponent must have night, or poor weather (negating your air) and an artillery limit (again, removing your historical advantage) then that’s BS, IMO.
Bottom line: I don’t mind “creativity” in force composition, but within a somewhat historical/realistic context.
in his overall assessment that air should count toward your artillery assets. But not for the exact reasons he posts.Army (US) Air is a separate branch, granted. It’s not officially part of the “Artillery”. However, as a ground-pounder, when briefing an OPORD, my “indirect fire assets” portion included both whatever arty they told us we’d have and what air assets. All were classified as indirect fire support. Of course your FO (if you’re lucky enough to have one of these guys assigned to you, it MAKES a mission IMO, ok, so I’m not so fond of having to call it in myself :p) is the best person to coordinate the actual call for fires, once you plan your original targets, and determine where you need it once you’ve made contact.
When purchasing arty, despite the fact that they’re listed on the “Miscellaneous” page, I’ve always included any air strike elements (bombers/fighter-bombers/ground-attack aircraft) in my Artillery totals. What I do NOT include are air transport assets.
Reason I don’t agree wholly with RB is because I don’t particularly dislike air assets. I don’t find them as a huge crutch for opponents, as my core force usually contains some AA assets anyway (because of what they do to infantry *shudders*). I think their use is limited for all their well-known flaws (shooting up friendly AFVs/troops, collateral damage), but personally I’d love to call in some BF-110’s (IIRC) to take out a battery of Russian rockets parked on an ammo dump. The splash damage is great against massed infantry as well, or ATGs.
And if I had a vote, I’d say that Airborne are not “infiltrators”, as someone asked above. They’re infantry, and if you’re playing with “C&C” on, I don’t see why anyone would limit even the number of air-droppable units. If you mis-drop these guys, it’s easy to get them routed and cleaned up in short order, and they’re kind of pricey
. Don’t most players keep a “clean-up” or “reserve” force in the rear to handle any partisans or airborne troops? “Infiltrator” troops are those that you can assign infiltration missions to in the set-up phase with the command button (Special Ops, Partisans, Rangers). I do find it odd that you can air-drop non-airborne units. The only consequence seems to be high suppression when they land. I’d prefer to see a change where engineer or ski troops which are air-dropped have a high chance of incurring damage to each squad (broken ankles/legs/arms, or tree landings) to discourage such historically inaccurate tactics. Sure, glider them in, but don’t drop them.And I’ll also respectfully disagree with Frank W, in that most people want fun, not realism. I disagree with the premise that they’re mutually exclusive. I think if you stay somewhat realistic (not buying a force that’s made only of Air, ATGs and infiltrators for example), a “well-rounded” force makes a battle both semi-historical and fun.
Limits? Other than remaining relatively realistic (which includes no pre-laid mines in a meeting engagement), I’m not big on them if it’s a “random” setup. If the other fellow spends 50% his points on arty, and any of it is on-board, wouldn’t a well-placed infiltrator or 2 enable you to effectively counter-battery/nullify his arty advantage? And eventually, OB assets run out. I’m yet to play a huge PvP battle against an enemy using tons of arty, so I guess I’m naïve there. My ground infantry are typically mech though, and Arty’s only horribly bad if you’re sitting still, unluckily crossing one of his pre-planned targets, or he’s the U.S. with those insane response times
. I will usually purchase one section of large, long-range guns specifically for counter-battery fire. And if you’re playing “random” settings (weather/TOD?) then Air shouldn’t be an issue anyway. If a guy wants to roll the dice that he’ll be able to fly and buy a ton of air, let him. Could work out in your favor. But if your battle time-frame is in late ’44, and you’re playing the U.S. against Germany, if your opponent must have night, or poor weather (negating your air) and an artillery limit (again, removing your historical advantage) then that’s BS, IMO. Bottom line: I don’t mind “creativity” in force composition, but within a somewhat historical/realistic context.
Originally posted by Frank W.
my worst experience was a opp. who had a company ( or more ) of panther g uhu´s.
btw: gary + rbrunsman: we haven´t played yet i think. we should change that in the near future.....
Uhus are a perfect example of my thoughts on buying. When I see Uhus available, I consider them and then always disregard them. They are just too unfair against your opponent. I think I could have bought them in the V2/rb v Jess/Gary PBEM, and now I'm wishing I had because it seems to me that everyone posting thinks that "all's fair in war."
btw: you just need to wander over to the Opponents Wanted forum and post your challenge. I'm happy to oblige anyone looking for a pounding.:p
RobW: Sorry to have hijacked your thread, but this has certainly been an interesting and valuable discussion.
Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom
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Frank W.
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- Contact:
>>>>>Uhus are a perfect example of my thoughts on buying. When I see Uhus available, I consider them and then always disregard them. They are just too unfair against your opponent. I think I could have bought them in the V2/rb v Jess/Gary PBEM, and now I'm wishing I had because it seems to me that everyone posting thinks that "all's fair in war."
in the case of uhu´s it´s NOT fair, because they don´t belong to a WW2 game like they are modelled. i mean only 2 or 3 were actually used in combat.....
>>>>btw: you just need to wander over to the Opponents Wanted forum and post your challenge. I'm happy to oblige anyone looking for a pounding.:p
not yet ! but soon, i´m in for a battle!
in the case of uhu´s it´s NOT fair, because they don´t belong to a WW2 game like they are modelled. i mean only 2 or 3 were actually used in combat.....
>>>>btw: you just need to wander over to the Opponents Wanted forum and post your challenge. I'm happy to oblige anyone looking for a pounding.:p
not yet ! but soon, i´m in for a battle!
Re: Just an opinion
Originally posted by Vathailos
As much as it pains me to do so, I’m going to have to agree with RB
Hey! When did I become a pariah?
Clarification: I only consider air strikes to be arty, not gliders and cargo planes (or their payloads). You can buy all the Spec Ops units you want within reason just don't infiltrate all of them. I wouldn't change my AAA purchases one way or the other if I know you are going to buy airstrikes since I always buy balanced forces. I would just like to know that I should consider them too if I know you are going to use them. Also, as above, if you are going to buy "unfair" units, then I would consider myself free of my (admittedly self imposed) buying restrictions and start looking at Uhus and bunches of quad .50s, etc. I just want to know if this is going to be a "fantasy" matchup or a roughly historic matchup. I know next to nothing about actual OOBs so when I say roughly historic, I mean a balanced force as available from the buy screens.
Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom
Originally posted by Frank W.
in the case of uhu´s it´s NOT fair, because they don´t belong to a WW2 game like they are modelled. i mean only 2 or 3 were actually used in combat.....
Ah yes, but most people want Rarity OFF. That toggle cuts both ways. I prefer Rarity ON because if forces you to play a different set of OOBs every time. Variety is the spice of life!
Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom
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Frank W.
- Posts: 1040
- Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
- Contact:
Originally posted by rbrunsman
Ah yes, but most people want Rarity OFF. That toggle cuts both ways. I prefer Rarity ON because if forces you to play a different set of OOBs every time. Variety is the spice of life!
i usually play w/ rarity on.
but this sometimes makes strange choices what the game considers as "rare" equipment....
RB...
If I was unclear in my response, forgive please RB. I do indeed think that air strike elements are artillery as well, and that’s exactly what I meant. As far as including the bit about air transport assets, I put that in because either in this thread or another (can’t remember ATM) someone had cargo planes and the like in with general air assets. I didn’t mean to imply that you were that someone RB. Someone also asked in this thread if airborne troops were considered infiltrators. That wasn’t you either, but I took time to express my opinion on that as well.
Matter of fact, if I was “designer for a day” I’d like to see all air strike assets (to include bombers) included on the Artillery purchase page, rather than miscellaneous. But I digress.
As far as the comment “as much as it pains me”, I believe I suffer from the curse of clouded intent. I was actually making jovial reference to the first few posts I’d made here in the Training Center. It seemed (if one squinted enough) that if I expressed one opinion, you’d take a diametrically opposed position. That portion was made in jest, sorry if the point was lost somewhere in the middle.
Long story short (too late, I know), Pariah status rescinded.
Matter of fact, if I was “designer for a day” I’d like to see all air strike assets (to include bombers) included on the Artillery purchase page, rather than miscellaneous. But I digress.
As far as the comment “as much as it pains me”, I believe I suffer from the curse of clouded intent. I was actually making jovial reference to the first few posts I’d made here in the Training Center. It seemed (if one squinted enough
) that if I expressed one opinion, you’d take a diametrically opposed position. That portion was made in jest, sorry if the point was lost somewhere in the middle.Long story short (too late, I know), Pariah status rescinded.
guys, I am happy to be hijacked and also usually buy a rounded force. I guess I need to try to keep track of what I am buying a little better and jot down pluses & miuses as I play them.
So we have finished with purchasing - what about deployment. I am beginning to take longer over this, looking at terrain, trying to set objectives etc but I guess things like plans and tactics fly out the window when the first enemy is spotted - I tend to find myself reacting to others which usually confuses and shows weaknesses in my deployment.
So we have finished with purchasing - what about deployment. I am beginning to take longer over this, looking at terrain, trying to set objectives etc but I guess things like plans and tactics fly out the window when the first enemy is spotted - I tend to find myself reacting to others which usually confuses and shows weaknesses in my deployment.