The Formation Editor - Or Lack Thereof

[BDukes]

Rather than be dismissive and tell me to "go play Harpoon" or "play more CMO," people could explain what I'm misunderstanding about the formation editor in CMO and how to use it.

You're expecting the functionality of a formation editor from a different game while ignoring what the new game does. You're linking to a known hater-troll who has never acted in good faith toward CMO and nobody likes in general. The name calling stuff was pretty daft as well. I also bet you couldn't bust a grape in a fruit fight.But ok lets spend time walking you through this...

Is there a way to assign a zone to a formation station?

Nope its done in the mission editor.

Is there a way to move an entire zone at once? Is there a way to move multiple reference points at once? If there are these things, I cannot find them. I am in-progress reading the manual; referencing it as needed.

I'm sure you've read the manual and played enough to know it doesn't work that way. You can move reference points 1 by 1. If it is 4 reference points than might be one more click than harpoon. You can check if you'd like.

If it bothers you that much just ask for it in the request thread. People will vote on it if its truly a big thing for lots of people. If not, well, tough gumballs.

I have started using a single reference point in "Patrol" mode to indicate air/surf/subsurf threat vectors. And then keep it inactive until I actually have a threat vector, then manually assign units to that "threat vector mission," and activate the mission. Is that how I'm SUPPOSED to be using the tools?

No you can use prosecution zones. The benefit its it doesn't have to be a wedge and its not necessarily linked. You can also use exclusion zones to dictate how to handle the threat. You could not do this with Harpoon.

Unless I'm totally missing something, I find the reference points system is clunky to use. Pretty flexible, sure. But could be smoother.

I can't tell you how to feel about it. You can drop four at once or whole circles at once.

I'm not talking about making zones relative or absolute. I'm talking about moving zones around, and changing their shape, within the formation itself.
Pull the entire ASW/ASuW picket patrols back from 25nm to 10nm, all at once, and direct it a little north of the battlegroup/convoy heading. Or having a broad ASW patrol zone and getting sonar contact at a particular bearing, but it's got a bit of variance. So you narrow down the patrol zone to encompass only the bearing and estimated range at which there was detection.
Things like that.
As far as I can find, changing these things involves moving individual reference points. Not an ideal UX.

You can change zone sizes just by clicking and moving reference points. With the system you have much better control in terms of patterns and what you're units do in response to detections. You don't even need to be in the editor.

If this really bugs you I'd start issuing bug reports and going through the process. It shows you have some skin in the game and it may just win some votes to what you added to the request string.

Thanks!

M

[thewood1]

To the OP; if you come around and just you want it to be like Harpoon after 5-6 days of playing, expect some push back. If you have actually played it enough to get a feel for the differences, you'll get a little more support for changes. Otherwise, you are just exposing your lack of willingness to learn the game. There are enough former big-time former Harpoon players calling you out that you haven't really engaged in knowledgeable discourse on it, you should probably take a step back. You come across as someone who just wants an updated Harpoon. If thats the case, do what these devs did and and go build it.

Suggestions:

1) Don't invoke Herman Hum. It was his shenanigans that drove the devs to build CMO. He did everything in his very limited power to bring it down. Its not doing you any favors.
2) For goodness sake, don't use Herman's main tool (the video) to build your case. Herman's motives were obvious and immediately called out. It was even taken down on a number of sites.
3) Play longer than a few days before leveling some heavy duty criticism.
4) Forget everything you learned about Harpoon. It doesn't apply here. Just the way you are talking about it validates that. I think the people who enjoy this game the most are the people that take it as a clean slate.
5) Spend some time to actually learn the game. Harpoon is a simple game for more mass market appeal. CMO is much more powerful and flexible. If thats not what you want, you should go back to Harpoon. Trying to make CMO into Harpoon will not end well for anyone.

You're not the first long-time Harpoon player to show up and declare they want Harpoon.

[ronmexico111]

Rather than be dismissive and tell me to "go play Harpoon" or "play more CMO," people could explain what I'm misunderstanding about the formation editor in CMO and how to use it.
Is there a way to assign a zone to a formation station? Is there a way to move an entire zone at once? Is there a way to move multiple reference points at once? If there are these things, I cannot find them. I am in-progress reading the manual; referencing it as needed.
I have started using a single reference point in "Patrol" mode to indicate air/surf/subsurf threat vectors. And then keep it inactive until I actually have a threat vector, then manually assign units to that "threat vector mission," and activate the mission. Is that how I'm SUPPOSED to be using the tools?
Unless I'm totally missing something, I find the reference points system is clunky to use. Pretty flexible, sure. But could be smoother.
I'm not talking about making zones relative or absolute. I'm talking about moving zones around, and changing their shape, within the formation itself.
Pull the entire ASW/ASuW picket patrols back from 25nm to 10nm, all at once, and direct it a little north of the battlegroup/convoy heading. Or having a broad ASW patrol zone and getting sonar contact at a particular bearing, but it's got a bit of variance. So you narrow down the patrol zone to encompass only the bearing and estimated range at which there was detection.
Things like that.
As far as I can find, changing these things involves moving individual reference points. Not an ideal UX.

Honestly, it doesn't take long at all to quickly define a box of 4 reference points, set up a patrol mission, and then assign or unassign units to it as needed. Later, you can change the position or size of the patrol zone simply by clicking and dragging a few reference points directly on the map, the zone can even follow a task force and turn with it if you set it up that way. Doesn't even take LUA if you're just playing a scenario, why is this so hard to understand?

[ronmexico111]

To the OP; if you come around and just you want it to be like Harpoon after 5-6 days of playing, expect some push back. If you have actually played it enough to get a feel for the differences, you'll get a little more support for changes. Otherwise, you are just exposing your lack of willingness to learn the game. There are enough former big-time former Harpoon players calling you out that you haven't really engaged in knowledgeable discourse on it, you should probably take a step back. You come across as someone who just wants an updated Harpoon. If thats the case, do what these devs did and and go build it.

Suggestions:

1) Don't invoke Herman Hum. It was his shenanigans that drove the devs to build CMO. He did everything in his very limited power to bring it down. Its not doing you any favors.
2) For goodness sake, don't use Herman's main tool (the video) to build your case. Herman's motives were obvious and immediately called out. It was even taken down on a number of sites.
3) Play longer than a few days before leveling some heavy duty criticism.
4) Forget everything you learned about Harpoon. It doesn't apply here. Just the way you are talking about it validates that. I think the people who enjoy this game the most are the people that take it as a clean slate.
5) Spend some time to actually learn the game. Harpoon is a simple game for more mass market appeal. CMO is much more powerful and flexible. If thats not what you want, you should go back to Harpoon. Trying to make CMO into Harpoon will not end well for anyone.

You're not the first long-time Harpoon player to show up and declare they want Harpoon.

I guess they actually updated Harpoon Ultimate Edition less than two months ago. I updated my copy yesterday and gave it a play, then quickly remembered why I stopped playing it for the past several years. Quick question, who is Herman Hum?

[thewood1]

I PMed you. Didn't want to give that site any traffic.

I think a player is updating scenarios and some of the basics. But they aren't fully sanctioned as far as a I know. Matrix announced it was being sun set quite a while ago.

[artao5]

"Just moving a few reference point." ....
Okay. Moving four reference points takes at least 4 times as long as moving an area. And using only 4 reference points to define an area -- or patrol route -- is quite minimal. And don't tell me you accurately select reference points to move them every single time. They can be fiddly to click on, especially when zoomed further out.
I see zero negatives to being able to move an entire area/zone/region at once. Or even multiple reference points. One at a time is needlessly tedious. The technology to move areas and multiple points has been around for decades now.

[artao5]

"Just moving a few reference point." ....
Okay. Moving four reference points takes at least 4 times as long as moving the area defined by them all at once. And using only 4 reference points to define an area -- or patrol route -- is quite minimal. And don't tell me you accurately select reference points to move them every single time. They can be fiddly to click on, especially when zoomed further out.
I see zero negatives to being able to move an entire area/zone/region at once. Or even multiple reference points. One at a time is needlessly tedious. The technology to move areas and multiple points has been around for decades now.

[BDukes]

"Just moving a few reference point." ....
Okay. Moving four reference points takes at least 4 times as long as moving an area. And using only 4 reference points to define an area -- or patrol route -- is quite minimal. And don't tell me you accurately select reference points to move them every single time. They can be fiddly to click on, especially when zoomed further out.

Definitely not all the time, but it is one-second problem to solve. You can misplace your box in the same manner.

I see zero negatives to being able to move an entire area/zone/region at once. Or even multiple reference points. One at a time is needlessly tedious. The technology to move areas and multiple points has been around for decades now.

What are the negatives to adding it to the request list like everybody else does?

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=341588

Mike

[ronmexico111]

"Just moving a few reference point." ....
Okay. Moving four reference points takes at least 4 times as long as moving an area. And using only 4 reference points to define an area -- or patrol route -- is quite minimal. And don't tell me you accurately select reference points to move them every single time. They can be fiddly to click on, especially when zoomed further out.
I see zero negatives to being able to move an entire area/zone/region at once. Or even multiple reference points. One at a time is needlessly tedious. The technology to move areas and multiple points has been around for decades now.

There is no pleasing you. What happens if you're attacked from multiple axes at once? If having to make 3 more clicks which takes a few more seconds out of your life than maybe you need to take a look at what's wrong with you, not what you might perceive as something wrong with the game. If you enjoy Harpoon, then go play that, it's was just recently updated in January of this year https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 9&t=392148. If you want the developers of CMO to change this game into Harpoon, probably not going to happen, and you need to ask yourself why you decided to play CMO in the first place because something must have been lacking in Harpoon that made you want to try something different.

[BDukes]

or get in gound level in Modern Naval Warfare. Might be more what you're looking for.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... hp?f=10148

M

[artao5]

Wow. Another round of childish responses eh.
If there's threats from multiple axes at once then, as it is, you have even MORE reference points to individually move. Rather than moving an entire area in one click and drag operation. Every click to move one reference point could be used to move an entire zone made from any arbitrary number of reference points. If you've got 4 points each assigned to ASW, A/A, and Prime Threat zones, that's 12 points to move. If entire areas could be moved, that's three click-and-drags. And I usually have multiple ASW and CAP zones as well as individual AA, ASW, and ASuW threat axes. Not to mention exclusion zones and no-fly/nav zones.
I have figured out how to use a single reference point assigned as a strike mission (AA, ASW, or ASuW as needed) then manually put threats into the target list for each. It's not ideal, as sometimes units go to the target and just follow rather than attack, even tho they're set to fire; or RTB after taking out just one threat when there's a few more to go and they still have valid weapons.
Is that how I'm supposed to be doing it? How do YOU do it? Or maybe you don't.
Do you just create zones and then keep them static? Do you not move reference points around?
If I can already do the sorts of things I'm talking about, how about informing me how? I'm still doing tutorials and reading the manual and watching videos. Closing in on 80 hrs of play in the last couple weeks. There's a WHOMP ton to learn in this game. Early on formation management, being so important, has jumped out at me as an area that could use improvement.
If there's information I'm missing, point me to it. I started with the sub tutorials, then the surface tutorials, and am currently going thru air tutorials. And playing Red Tide now and then, trying to complete The Bedford Incident. Often while watching P Gatcomb's excellent tutorials. He hasn't covered any of this stuff yet either. But I have HOURS of his vids to go thru yet. Are others more important to check out first?
These games are often long periods of little to do and sudden surges of intense action. During such times it's important to be able to quickly and easily and intuitively manage your units in groups and formations. (That was Fleet Command's biggest failing, too much micromanagement)

Rather than act like an 8-yr old you could perhaps elaborate on how YOU use the available tools in such situations. Eh?
But no. WTF is wrong with you. You're so butthurt by even a DISCUSSION about proposed changes to the formations to make them easier to use and you go off on some "If you love it so much why don't you marry it" school yard bullshit. (i.e. - Go play Harpoon) Childish and sad <facepalm>
You seriously think the game is perfect as-is? The devs don't. LMAO
You wouldn't like to be able to click an area and drag the entire thing -- ALL of its reference points -- in one go? Seriously? Cuz that's what you're arguing against here.

[BDukes]

Wow. Another round of childish responses eh.
If there's threats from multiple axes at once then, as it is, you have even MORE reference points to individually move. Rather than moving an entire area in one click and drag operation. Every click to move one reference point could be used to move an entire zone made from any arbitrary number of reference points. If you've got 4 points each assigned to ASW, A/A, and Prime Threat zones, that's 12 points to move. If entire areas could be moved, that's three click-and-drags. And I usually have multiple ASW and CAP zones as well as individual AA, ASW, and ASuW threat axes. Not to mention exclusion zones and no-fly/nav zones.
I have figured out how to use a single reference point assigned as a strike mission (AA, ASW, or ASuW as needed) then manually put threats into the target list for each. It's not ideal, as sometimes units go to the target and just follow rather than attack, even tho they're set to fire; or RTB after taking out just one threat when there's a few more to go and they still have valid weapons.
Is that how I'm supposed to be doing it? How do YOU do it? Or maybe you don't.
Do you just create zones and then keep them static? Do you not move reference points around?
If I can already do the sorts of things I'm talking about, how about informing me how? I'm still doing tutorials and reading the manual and watching videos. Closing in on 80 hrs of play in the last couple weeks. There's a WHOMP ton to learn in this game. Early on formation management, being so important, has jumped out at me as an area that could use improvement.
If there's information I'm missing, point me to it. I started with the sub tutorials, then the surface tutorials, and am currently going thru air tutorials. And playing Red Tide now and then, trying to complete The Bedford Incident. Often while watching P Gatcomb's excellent tutorials. He hasn't covered any of this stuff yet either. But I have HOURS of his vids to go thru yet. Are others more important to check out first?
These games are often long periods of little to do and sudden surges of intense action. During such times it's important to be able to quickly and easily and intuitively manage your units in groups and formations. (That was Fleet Command's biggest failing, too much micromanagement)

Rather than act like an 8-yr old you could perhaps elaborate on how YOU use the available tools in such situations. Eh?
But no. WTF is wrong with you. You're so butthurt by even a DISCUSSION about proposed changes to the formations to make them easier to use and you go off on some "If you love it so much why don't you marry it" school yard bullshit. (i.e. - Go play Harpoon) Childish and sad <facepalm>
You seriously think the game is perfect as-is? The devs don't. LMAO
You wouldn't like to be able to click an area and drag the entire thing -- ALL of its reference points -- in one go? Seriously? Cuz that's what you're arguing against here.

A lot of ups and down and ins and outs in this here post.

Best to post your request to the request string. I'll vote for it.

M

[HalfLifeExpert]

I didn't grow up with Harpoon, in fact, I only had a look at it after many years of playing Command (both original and CMO versions), when I bought the Ultimate Edition off of Matrix when it was on sale.

Having examined it and tried playing it, it's abundantly clear to me that Command is the VASTLY superior product, (although I still have the pipedream of seeing all the old Harpoon scenarios ported over to/remade in Command, since I never played them), and some of the old Harpoon documentation on Tactics is still useful in command.

You're free to keep playing Harpoon of course, but seriously, Command is where everything has shifted over. Sticking to that legacy (albeit legendary and classic) is just being very contrarian.

[Count Sessine]

Age has everything to do with it. I'm 60 and cut my PC gaming teeth on 360 and other 80s developers. Anyone under 40 most likely has no experience with Harpoon except when old guys like us show up. Harpoon was good for what and when it was. Harpoon is barely clinging. Even Matrix gave up on it. Once a year or so I pop over to HH's Harpoon site just to make myself feel better. Its like a nursing home for old wargamers who can't move on.

My best friend owned an Oldmobile dealership until Olds finally was shut down by GM. His regional manager told him it was because the average age of a new Olds buyer was dead or close to it. At 60, I'm closer to dead than not. Its just a fact.

Damn, that's a funny comment Well said.

[thewood1]

I knew I liked you.