Mine Clearing

Daniel Oskar · Post by **Daniel Oskar** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:47 am

I've seen unspotted infantry pop smoke and run after a bombardment, but never from the Z key. Maybe they are modelling the effect of fuses w/ indirect fire. It would be hard to get an airburst in direct fire!

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:54 am

Major Destructioin: Unless I'm wrong I believe we were talking about spotting unspotted units which "don't" return fire, and that the only method of spotting it being used, is that you direct-fire bombard it. In any case, direct-fire should suppress the unit, when fired enough times, even if it doesn't expose the hidden unit and it appears Bing believes it does not.

john g · Post by **john g** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 3:09 am

Originally posted by The MSG:
No, you get 5 "construction" points for that price. Each of those points allows you to place mines, dragonteeth or wire in a single hex, and each placement gives you "10" mines, dragonteeth or wire there.

This is of course somewhat of an abstraction, since 10 dragonteeth in a 50 metre line wouldnt stop much unless theyre VERY large

They might not even be dragons teeth, perhaps Rommel's asparagus, the poles planted into fields to tear up gliders while landing.

The best tank obstacle I ever saw was on the road between Seoul and the dmz, every few miles a large overpass like structure would cross the road, if needed the concrete over the road would be dropped down to block the road to vehicles, no engineers with satchel charges were going to remove that roughly 100 foot long 15 foot high and 20 foot thick chunk of reinforced concrete. Extending to each side were conventional dragons teeth. Fortunately the S. Koreans still havn't had to use them.

In game terms, if you have a either a row of DT mixed with mines or a strip of just DT between rows of mines you really can slow up a force that depends on mine clearing vehicles. Foot engineers are the key to clearing that sort of mixed defense.
thanks, John.

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 3:14 am

We're getting closer to the topic as I meant it to be here. First, I should have included a comment to the effect that indirect arty fire does have an effect on unspotted units, though that is not always apparent until an on-map unit DOES get a visual fix. I"ve killed tanks at crossroads, suppressed gobs of inf. units via indirect arty.

The point - for me at least - is not why I am using a tank main gun to fire at a blank hex. I don't do that during normal play, as the remark has been made it is best to have scouts or other leg units reveal the unspotted unit.

The question in my mind is - and I"ve tested this a number of times - is why the tank main gun does not reveal the unit and have an effect during Z-fire. Large explosions of HE have no effect on a hidden inf. unit during Z-fire, but they certainly do when the same fire is directed at a spotted unit.

Are we saying the game is functioning correctly because fire at an unspotted unit would not be accurate, therefore ineffective? I've fired a dozen or more large caliber rounds into a hex I know contains an inf unit, with no effect at all. They magically appear, unharmed, when they want to fire at one of my units .. or will appear when spotted by a leg unit.

Perhaps tanks don't see the hidden units as well? But even if they don't, wouldn't a round or two have SOME effect on the hidden unit? Also, I have "sprayed" the landscape with small arms fire a few times, with zero effect, but not to the extent that I tested the tank main gun effect.

Maybe I'm just doing it wrong. No big deal, really. I enjoy the game tremendously.

Bing

john g · Post by **john g** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 3:15 am

Originally posted by TunnelRat:
SPWAW manual 4.0 states (page 77) that mine-clearing tanks, engineers and infantry may clear mines - tanks and engineers facing or inside mined hex and infantry inside. This is to happen automatically at end of a turn meeting the aforementioned specifications.

Is there a relative rate of clearance? Perhaps based upon the density of the mine field? I've noticed that my mine-rams and infantry aren't clearing mines completely at end of turn. Engineers seem to clear all at end of turn.

Can someone clarify this for me. Thanks.

You can face up to 50 pts of mines, wire, DT per hex. That is a total of 50, if you mix types it averages the types together, put in 40 mines and then add 10 DT, you end up with 25 mines and 25 DT.
No single unit can clear 50 mines in one turn. It will take many units or many turns to clear high density minefields.

Another gotcha is that defending troops right next to the field will help remove it, you want at least 1 hex seperation. This even applies to engineers set to lay mines, they will remove wire and DT replacing it with mines.
thanks, John.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 6:45 am

I have answers. Conducted the following test:

6/41 played human both sides with Germany and USSR. With Germany I used 2 PZIVEs carrying the A0 unit for spotting. The opponent was Russian rifle squads. There was a set of unspotted rifle, and another set that were spotted. Five rounds of direct-fire bombardment were subjected to one particular rifle unit of each category. Results:

Spotted rifle suppression after 5 rounds of 75L24: 18 pts.

Unspotted rifle suppression after 5 rounds of 75L24: 13pts.

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 9:14 am

Originally posted by Charles22:
I have answers. Conducted the following test:

6/41 played human both sides with Germany and USSR. With Germany I used 2 PZIVEs carrying the A0 unit for spotting. The opponent was Russian rifle squads. There was a set of unspotted rifle, and another set that were spotted. Five rounds of direct-fire bombardment were subjected to one particular rifle unit of each category. Results:

Spotted rifle suppression after 5 rounds of 75L24: 18 pts.

Unspotted rifle suppression after 5 rounds of 75L24: 13pts.

Sounds pretty much indicative to me. I also conducted a test, US Ranger unit versus unspotted Panzershreck unit in woods, sprayed them with Z-fire, 6 x carbine and BAR. The Shreck came out of it Pinned, but that didn't prevent them from firing away liie crazy.

So I guess it does make a difference, though the unspotted units aren't going to take the damage a spotted one would. That might account for the impression I got there was no effect. Maybe we CAN simulate the Us practice of "spraying the woods" first thing in the morning, to clear out German infiltrators. Worth a try, maybe.

Thanks, everyone. This was interesting - to me it was.

Bing

bravo.john · Post by **bravo.john** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 11:46 am

Originally posted by kao16:

Incorrect (at least from a quick check). The message on the purchase page is "spend 10 pts to buy 5 mines" or some such.

Each mine point on the deploy screen buys 10 mines in one hex, not just 1 mine. It seems the person originally was commmenting about people putting 10,20 ect mines in a hex without realizing that they were putting 50 in every hex!

Those 5 "mines" in the buy screen are 5 points that can be used for 50 mines, or you can always put up some wire and AT obstacles in the same area if you really want those mines to last a while.

Speaking of which, I've yet to see a vehicle enter a 50 mine hex and survive intact. Worst case, thrown track, most often, blown to bits.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 7:44 pm

Bing: AT-rifle units are relentless badgers, perhaps it's a bug. Get this. I was playing as the Brits at one time and I can't recall the nationality of the AT-rifle (perhaps Japanese). AT first I shot at it with direct fire two or three times and he kills the first tank (probably about four hexes away). Then that got me mad and I really started hammering it. He suffered a loss and kept firing and destroyed another tank. This got me even madder so I really opened up, which resulted in another loss to his crew, to which he destroyed another tank (none of them closer then four hexes away). That sucker must've fired AT LEAST 12 times in opfire, I'd never seen anything like it, though I did finally wipe it out.

I would like to add, that the 'Z' bombardment I tried had all units in clear terrain, and that the unspotted infantry were 8 hexes away, while the spotted were about 4 hexes away. I don't think the distance traveled in bombardment makes a difference, but that's how the test was ran. What the test shows, from that particular gun, in open terrain, with units in advance state (non-moving though), is that each round will do between 2 or 3 suppression points.

Let's say you'll suppress a unit to 99. Well, what'll happen a lot of the time, particularly against highly experienced units, is that you won't see the result until the 'next' turn (or that's my guess anyway), because I know that I never see one of my units bombed into oblivion and then retreat (playing Gerry mostly), but that they will retreat/rout if on my turn I cannot rally them. So, that may mean that the spotting of the unspotted will occur a full turn later than we might be inclined to think. Of course there's a fine line between causing enough suppression to where they 'just show up' and hopefully don't rally, and quite another for them to rout/retreat.

Overall, especially if the nation you're fighting has strong morale, the practicality of 'Z' fire to reveal or rout/retreat a unit is fairly nil, but if four or five 75mm units bombard at very likely defensive hex, that might be worth the time and effort. It would be a priceless manuever to weed out an 88flak. Of course I've only tested infantry, but if the object were an 88flak, then surely it would be easier to spot than infantry. It also would serve to place every hex on a hill into a "1" suppression rating if they were all bombarded. This would be particularly helpful, if you encountered opfire from a unit that you know was previously unsuppressed. 'Z' the unit's hex to cut it's accuracy (as the computer is so fond of doing) building, but if there are any more units in the hex, they too will have had a '1' placed on their suppression.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:23 am

That 'Z' firing is totally worth it. What else are you doing when you can't see anything? There are times when I see an AT gun fire, but don't get a visual on it. I usually proceed to get every piece of small arms I can on the hex, then get everything larger on it. I found, with relative predictability, that firing with the target tank at the suspicious AP firing hex results in a second shot at the tank... but after putting 10 or 20 or 30 mg or rifle attacks into the hex that I'm free from that particular hex's evil. The limitation is that it takes a HUGE amount of firepower to accomplish that small task. The tactic is of use for elminating outposts in large battles... It's useful, but the amount of fire you really need to pour into single hexes prohibits its use.

Tomo

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:28 am

Tombstone: So do you find it as I described, that units don't reveal themselves, till the "next" player turn and not the current one? I ask this question strictly from the point of view that we're talking about a unit which has not fired, and does not fire that turn. I know you can draw fire, but learning about dormant units would be so much more helpful.

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:29 am

Thanks one and all for the comments, I have learned a good deal about SPW@W game play.

Per above, it does take an enormous amount of Z-fire to have a real effect on unspotted units (assuming you knew where they were to begin with.

The better the recon, the less need for Z-fire.

Thanks again.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 3:17 am

I don't end up seeing them until next turn and even then only if they rout and run off( still, usually I only see smoke pop, no actual unit spotting ), unless I run right up to them. That happens sometimes, and they don't assault if I put enough hate into the hex (which often is NOT the case). It's not a good way to do recon, and an especially bad way to stay hidden. It's best use is when you get ambushed and have no other course of action because you're getting wailed on from invisible units. It's cool to have self-propelled howitzers at that point (M7's are wonderful in many ways), that way if you didn't see EXACTLY which hex it came from you can suppress 7 hexes that you think safely contains the offending hex. Under medium to small sized circumstances I usually pop smoke and rethink my advance a bit... or just take a beating.

Tomo

JTGEN · Post by **JTGEN** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 7:14 pm

I have had in a couple of occasions engineers clearing 5 mines per turn with experience of 75-85 with Soviets and Germans. Usually if not under fire they clear 3-4 per turn. Also mine clearing tanks can get 3-4 per turn but usually les than the engineers. Using artillery of 150mm is good as it clears some of the mines but also on exposing them and killing the infartry close to the mines. When clearing the mines with smoke cover one must have protection for the engineers as the AI will bring tanks close to get you and also infartry.

Unspotted units will get suppression and casulties. Many times I have seen one unit and fired it with Brummbär or my favorite sturmtiger and the most effects come to units in adjacent hexes that I do not see. Often they retreat and use smoke witch indicates where they were.

Often the holes in minefields are places where the defenders were but then it shows that it is fortified hex when you enter it. Also AI has used an minefield against me with 1 line with mines is having a clear line and then again two lines of mines behind it.

Daniel Oskar · Post by **Daniel Oskar** » Fri Dec 29, 2000 1:33 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JTGEN:
...Using artillery of 150mm is good as it clears some of the mines but also on exposing them and killing the infartry close to the mines...

I've definitely seen the arty expose the mines, but it sure doesn't seem to reduce the density of the minefield.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Fri Dec 29, 2000 2:18 am

Daniel Oskar: Back in the old days, when the number of mines were numbered, you could see the gradual reduction of the number of mines after bombardment, but I never studied it extensively enough to determine whether it was worth all the ammunition that might've been used otherwise.

Captn_Jack · Post by **Captn_Jack** » Fri Dec 29, 2000 3:44 am

Originally posted by john g:

Another gotcha is that defending troops right next to the field will help remove it, you want at least 1 hex seperation. This even applies to engineers set to lay mines, they will remove wire and DT replacing it with mines.
thanks, John.

John, you can place engineers next to a mine, just click on "Will not remove mines" in the units status screen. Then casually wait on your prey...

CJ

john g · Post by **john g** » Sun Dec 31, 2000 1:45 am

Originally posted by Captn_Jack:
John, you can place engineers next to a mine, just click on "Will not remove mines" in the units status screen. Then casually wait on your prey...

CJ

I think that the time I tried "do not remove mines" the engineers removed DT from the facing hex. Now I just make sure I keep the 1 hex seperation and don't worry about it. Of course I never could see the reason for wire, mines stop moving infantry and cause casualties, wire just slows infantry down. Even when using wire similar to WWI with 50 pts of wire per hex with machine guns sited to sweep across the hexes.
thanks, John.