Produced tanks go into transit pool instead of active

[Denniss]

probably depends upon how the tanks reach their new units - per ground element upgrade or per swap.
With the upgrade function known working poorly in both air and ground those transfer tanks are likely from swapping.

What I dont know is how the system treats damaged tanks vs swapped-(upgraded-) out ready tanks in transfer pool, I really hope those formerly ready tanks just arrive to pool without being treated as damaged with random recovery/repair/destruction

I have a vague recollection of how this was handled in WitE1 - swapping and oversize reduction went into transfer pool, upgrade to active pool. But I can't remember if damaged vs undamaged was separated.

[Wiedrock]

There are many things that are influencing or I imagine could influence the changes of Equipment in Units, like:

1. official TOE requirement vs. what's currently in the unit
2. tanks of the same "tank Type" (e.g. Medium Tank) - without being an Upgrade in the current Unit
3. eventual Substitutions (if you don't have any Medium Tanks)
4. The amount of tanks you have in the Pool also plays a role whether something gets pushed into divisions or not
5. The official "Upgrade Path" Tank 1 -> Upgrade to Tank 2
6. Tank Production dates (does the game handles them differently once they are no longer being produced)?
7. Production dates (no Upgrade) - are later introduced tanks prioritized?
8. Tank Production beyond the "upgrade tank" is released and how to handle those older tanks which are still being produced
9. Scrap date and it's impact.

I have a vague recollection of how this was handled in WitE1 - swapping and oversize reduction went into transfer pool, upgrade to active pool.

I guess there may be the pissibility that in this early 1943 some of the factors I listed above are countering one another/interacting weird and Stamb's Tanks end up in a loop of upgrade/exchange/greater Pool-push....and so on.

What I dont know is how the system treats damaged tanks vs swapped-(upgraded-) out ready tanks in transfer pool

In the example in my last post I deleted all T-34 M1942 Production and added a Unit with Withdrawal date T2 (StB) near Moscow. It had 2500RDY and 2500DAM. After disbanding about ~500-600 of those 5000 tanks landed in the Transit pool.

[Beethoven1]

Stamb got to turn 24, he is now up to more than 5000 medium tanks in the transit pool...



The previous turn it was 4400:



Clearly there is something wrong here. If this can't be fixed, then you might as well just delete all the Soviet tank factories from the game and Soviets can just play only with rifle divisions, because it would amount to about the same thing.



Also I checked a save from my old Stalingrad to Berlin game from a year or 2 ago (we were on patch 1.02.13), and on turn 20/21 I had a lot fewer tanks in the transit pool (screenshot showing transit pool only):



This is still a lot in the transit pool, but it is way less than Stamb has and I was using the tanks very actively.

Most importantly, this was the previous turn (turn 20):



So it looks like unlike in Stamb's game, my numbers in transit pool were actually decreasing like they were supposed to (it was the start of spring mud).



So this problem with the transit pool was likely inserted in some previous patch accidentally, most likely in a fairly recent one (1.03???) since it is being noticed now.

[Joel Billings]

Back on turn 15 and 16, the Soviets said they were missing about 1500 medium tanks. It looks like on turn 23 they got to where they were only missing 475 medium tanks (this seems like a reasonably low number of missing tanks). On turn 24 it did go back up to 1476, more like what it was back on turns 15 and 16. Back on turn 16 you had 14k AFVs in units. How many do you have in units on turn 24?

Wiedrock showed that when a ground element upgrades due to the ground element upgrade path, the returning tank goes to the active pool. We can see from examples that when a tank is produced it goes to the active pool. We know that units that are sent back to the pool due to damage are put in the transit pool. What we don't know is what happens when a tank is sent back because it is downgraded or upgraded due to there not being enough of the current tank while there is excess of another substitute tank. Maybe Wiedrock can run that test by putting only 5 tigers in a unit and none in the pool while there are 10000 king tigers in the pool (and no upgrade path from tiger to king tiger). It would be interesting to see where the 5 returning tigers go when they get swapped out. My guess is they go to the transit pool.

I'm not convinced yet that there is a bug here, and it will be very time consuming to try to trace through and figure out if there is one. I'd have to ask Pavel if he can track whenever the transit pool goes up in the debugger and see if there's anything happening that isn't WAD (likely he'd have to trace tons of calculations, so not sure how he would do this). For that, I'd need a pre-log save from a German turn, and the type of tank that you are seeing substantially increase its transit pool number. It would help to know if in fact the upgrade/downgrades are going back to the transit pool, so Wiedrock, if you can alter your test slightly that would be great.

[Wiedrock]

What we don't know is what happens when a tank is sent back because it is downgraded or upgraded due to there not being enough of the current tank while there is excess of another substitute tank. Maybe Wiedrock can run that test by putting only 5 tigers in a unit and none in the pool while there are 10000 king tigers in the pool (and no upgrade path from tiger to king tiger). It would be interesting to see where the 5 returning tigers go when they get swapped out. My guess is they go to the transit pool.

To rule out the REFIT status, I rerun the test several times
UPGRADE + REFIT -> Active
UPGRADE no REFIT -> Transit
no UPGRADE + REFIT -> Active (...one test they ended up in Transit, but I may have confused this test)
no UPGRADE no REFIT -> Transit ...in other tests nothing happened for 4 turns.

[Wiedrock]

question is, where did they all go?

I found the reason why you were "missing" tanks. They are for whatever reason not listed correctly. Not sure whether this is also caused or affecting the issue of many going to the Transit Pool or whether those are two separate issues.

[Stamb]

Back on turn 15 and 16, the Soviets said they were missing about 1500 medium tanks. It looks like on turn 23 they got to where they were only missing 475 medium tanks (this seems like a reasonably low number of missing tanks). On turn 24 it did go back up to 1476, more like what it was back on turns 15 and 16. Back on turn 16 you had 14k AFVs in units. How many do you have in units on turn 24?

this is t24 with 100% max toe

t24.png (27.99 KiB) Viewed 931 times

lower missing number was due to a maximum toe of 50% which i set for many units cuz of heavy mud

[Stamb]

I am not sure if Joel was asking Beethoven's tanks in units or mine, since Beethoven was showing screenshots from his game and from mine too.
If it was question about my game then here are the numbers:
t16

t16_oob.png (96.91 KiB) Viewed 923 times

t24

t24_oob.png (122.05 KiB) Viewed 923 times

[Denniss]

Maybe there's some change justified here, with a week long turns it should be possible to send those upgraded or swapped-out elements to active pool if they are undamaged. Damaged elements should alway go through transfer pool.
Remember the switcharoo and massive tranfer pools with the soviet light artillery once the ZiS-3 became available.

[Stamb]

losses at the end of t24

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end of t24

1.png (26.37 KiB) Viewed 898 times

start of t25

t25.png (34.15 KiB) Viewed 898 times

i cant get it how it can not be bugged while i produce at least 350 medium tanks per turn + i have 350k manpower in an active pool for this tanks + i should be getting 25% of tanks from transit (which would be like a thousand!!!), yet still i am barely recovering from a losses from last turn and not seeing my tanks in an active pool either

t25a.png (401.04 KiB) Viewed 898 times

if system shifts tanks back and forth to the transit pool then it requires a fix since having tanks is essential in a game about ww2 and eastern front

[Joel Billings]

Wiedrock, from what you are reporting, are you saying that if the unit is not on refit, the tanks going back are placed in the transit pool, while if they are on refit they are placed in the active pool? If so, assuming this is not WAD, it could be a simple case that when code was changed to make the units returning go to the active pool, it was only changed in routines where refit is being used, as opposed to the routines where there is no refit. The code is often split into different functions, and when some change, others are forgotten. Of course it could also be that for some reason it was intended that units not on refit would have the tanks go back to the transit pool. Can you please confirm this and I'll discuss it with Pavel and Gary.

As for the display, in the case you show, a unit that calls for 1942 tanks but currently has 1943 tanks is showing up in the list of 217 under the 1942 tanks. Does this display sort by what is expected in the units, not what is in them? Is it possible that no unit OB at this time calls for a 1943 tank, so no units are shown for the 1943 tank?

[Wiedrock]

Wiedrock, from what you are reporting, are you saying that if the unit is not on refit, the tanks going back are placed in the transit pool, while if they are on refit they are placed in the active pool?

That's what this test showed me, not sure whether there is other possible stuff which could change this behaviour.

As for the display, in the case you show, a unit that calls for 1942 tanks but currently has 1943 tanks is showing up in the list of 217 under the 1942 tanks. Does this display sort by what is expected in the units, not what is in them? Is it possible that no unit OB at this time calls for a 1943 tank, so no units are shown for the 1943 tank?

That's how it is as it seems.

Element-List.png (469.06 KiB) Viewed 874 times

[Joel Billings]

Wiedrock, can you send me your test scenario file with the tiger transition. If it's a scenario file, I should be able to modify it easily to test upgrades and swap-outs, and to test refit versus non-refit. Please upload it here, or PM it to me. Thanks.

I spoke with Gary and Pavel and neither could remember there ever being an intentional difference for refit versus non-refitting players. By having the test scenario, Pavel will be able to trace it through the code to find where this is happening. Unless it's clear in the code why they are different, we'll try to make them consistent, with ideally non-damaged elements going to the active pool. However it is working, it's probably been this way since release of the game. Given the upcoming holidays, it will probably be some time before the next update, but we'll try to look at this and come to some resolution by our next public beta.

[Wiedrock]

Wiedrock, can you send me your test scenario file with the tiger transition. If it's a scenario file, I should be able to modify it easily to test upgrades and swap-outs, and to test refit versus non-refit.

It's 4 Scenarios, I made the Screenshot in my post before including their names to not confuse things.
Tested Division is the "14th Panzer Division".

[Joel Billings]

Thanks, just what I needed.

[neaugustus]

Thanks, just what I needed.

I've just noticed an issue pretty similar to that Stamb has, I believe it might have the same roots.

I'm playing a GC PBEM, we are on T98, I'm axis (the game was started long before OOB 2 beta patch). So, as you can see, I have Panthers A in production for some time now, but at this stage of the game axis simply almost don't have any units which have Panthers in their TOE (despite 2 panzer battalions which you recieve to your AR). But Panthers are alligable models for medium panzer, they can substitute Pnz III and IV.

This is my Panthers distirbution on t96

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96 both p.png (111.38 KiB) Viewed 778 times

96 tran p.png (121.64 KiB) Viewed 778 times

[neaugustus]

This is a situation on t97

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97 both p.png (110.52 KiB) Viewed 777 times

97 tran p.png (123.25 KiB) Viewed 777 times

[neaugustus]

And, finally, t98

98 CR.png (1.31 MiB) Viewed 776 times

98 both p.png (101.13 KiB) Viewed 776 times

98 tran p.png (108.47 KiB) Viewed 776 times

[neaugustus]

So I guess the problem is that the game trying to fill in equipment in units, if there is lack of normal TOE equipment then it substitute to anything that is available. But later, during next logistics phases the game checks can it replace substitution equipment with normal one, and if it is possible system swaps equipment and sends wahtever was in unit back to transit pool. Thanks to that juggling of Panthers I have a lot of them in transit even when they have never faced enemy yet.

losses 98.png (554.6 KiB) Viewed 774 times

If you want I can provide you saves to check this out closely

[Joel Billings]

Were the units with the Panthers units that were not in refit mode? If so, that would be consistent with prior saves for elements returning to the pool from units not in refit mode going to the transfer pool. We are looking into that now to see why that is happening. We don't think we intended for there to be a difference between refitting and non-refitting units in terms of where equipment that comes out of the unit goes.