German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

[Joel Billings]

Well, Axis has:

For the Axis side, if losses to the rest of the unit result in excess support squads, some may be converted to rifle squad ground elements or returned to the manpower pool during the replacement phase[.]
[Picture]
This German infantry regiment has been heavily defeated in a
localised Soviet offensive. As it only has 1 undamaged rifle squad, it
is possible that some of its support squads will be converted in the
next turn.

26.1.5. Excess Support Squad Ground Elements
Starting in October 1942 Axis units can use ready support squads to “repair” damaged elements. Damaged rifle and motorized rifle squads can be repaired, 10 at a time in a unit. In this case half of the men in the damaged squads are put in the disabled pool.
Enough support squads (2 or 3) are removed to replace these disabled men. Any excess men remaining are placed in the pool.
As an example, if a the squads require 10 men to be fixed, then 10 damaged squads
would become ready, 50 men would go to the disabled pool, 3 support squads would
be removed from the unit, and 10 men would be placed in the pool.

If this actually works. Noone knows, I've seen Divisions with damaged Elements and surplus in Support nor getting any Squad repaired, nor new Squads. Eventually this is caused by a lack of Manpower tho, which it shouldn't be since the Manpower is already in the Division....so....well, let's leave it at that.

I happened across this post, and can assure you that the repairing does happen (2nd item listed). I saw debug messages from turns in late 1944 that 378 support squads repaired rifle and motorized rifle squads on one turn, 560 on another (it also lists by unit). The excess support squads being converted into rifle squads does not happen, and I found notes that we intentionally disabled this before the original release of the game. IIRC the repair system took it's place, and looks like we never removed the older conversion method from the manual. I can't remember why we disabled one and created the other, but I know they were both intentional design decisions done before release. I can confirm that excess support squads can and do still return to the pool (lots of those debug messages in late 1944), but I don't have or remember the details on exactly what triggers it.

[Cavalry Corp]

Guys,
I read most of this and it looks like good research. Now I would be happy to apply the research to my mod with 100% credit to the authors.

Is there any way of sending me the revised OOB, or do I need to change it bit by bit for my 44 Mod in my editor?

If I cannot import a database, can I have screens showing the changes so I can apply them - I only need from May 44 onwards. It would not take too long, actually ( compared to AE!) I have a very dedicated player and would like to share an AAR using the changes and see how it goes.

Personally, I think the FE Battalions should not be in support as they were used to fighting when things got tight.
This could be done, I guess, by making a less effective FE component and reducing the support- but I am new to the editor.

Any ideas or suggestions are welcome.

Cav

[Wiedrock]

Is there any way of sending me the revised OOB, or do I need to change it bit by bit for my 44 Mod in my editor?

If I cannot import a database, can I have screens showing the changes so I can apply them - I only need from May 44 onwards.

Regarding the changes that you may need to do see the last post on the first page, those are the 4 OBs that need changes.
You have to do them by hand. I have an Edited GC41 with many changes, but that's off an older game version, I plan on implementing all findings and edit a new one this autumn if I have the time to do so.

I read most of this and it looks like good research. Now I would be happy to apply the research to my mod with 100% credit to the authors.

I do not need any credit if that's what you mean. All credits to the 2by3 and Matrix team and the community.

Personally, I think the FE Battalions should not be in support as they were used to fighting when things got tight.
This could be done, I guess, by making a less effective FE component and reducing the support- but I am new to the editor.

I tested several edited GC41 scenarios in AI vs AI games until 1945. Changing the CV value for Support (all support, so both sides) didn't rly make any difference to the AI (but in PvP it may have some impact I suppose), so my argument is to simply change the "support" CV value to 2 to give them more meaning/impact than they have now (they still won't shoot but at least offer some "weight").

[Cavalry Corp]

Weidrock

OK happy to try this for my mod.

You have listed the 44 Inf Div changes - ok and thanks, but are there others that need changing at all? Light, Mountain etc.
We already discussed the SS Heavy Tank Battalions, and I have already done that.

But I am not doing all the work until someone tells me why a newly designated Multi-role unit ( in this case, a Stug X and a heavy Tank Battalion has no MPs despite having full fuel when converted to on map- maybe I am missing a click, but I need to know.

Also, you have good knowledge. Why are Stug Brigades called such as they are still really only Battalion strength?

Cav.

[chaos45]

The renaming of Stug BN to Brigades is historical---it was the germans trying to throw off allied/soviet intel on how large the Stug formations were----defacto they remained battalion strength tho

[Cavalry Corp]

OK, thanks. It's a bit like the Pz Divs that were really only Brigade in strength, I guess.

[Denniss]

I happened across this post, and can assure you that the repairing does happen (2nd item listed). I saw debug messages from turns in late 1944 that 378 support squads repaired rifle and motorized rifle squads on one turn, 560 on another (it also lists by unit). The excess support squads being converted into rifle squads does not happen, and I found notes that we intentionally disabled this before the original release of the game. IIRC the repair system took it's place, and looks like we never removed the older conversion method from the manual. I can't remember why we disabled one and created the other, but I know they were both intentional design decisions done before release. I can confirm that excess support squads can and do still return to the pool (lots of those debug messages in late 1944), but I don't have or remember the details on exactly what triggers it.

How does that work exactly? Rifle squad is repaired and the support squad becomes damaged instead? does the support squad then stay in the unit or is sent to transfer pool?

[Denniss]

reworked.

do you have something similar for the VG divs as they shared many elements of the Inf org?

[Denniss]

Manpower for the 44 inf div may have varied a bit, the early version may have missed some men in the Art Rgt (3x 105 and 3x 150 How were supposed to be added) and also depending on how much Flak they had (12x 20mm SP or towed or just 9x 37mm)
per OKH order from 20 May 44 it was supposed to be 12776 men
https://web.archive.org/web/20240515035 ... rength.pdf

Volksgrenadier Div manpower per 9 September 44 = 11197
https://web.archive.org/web/20240613074 ... rength.pdf

[Wiedrock]

reworked.

do you have something similar for the VG divs as they shared many elements of the Inf org?

Give me a day or two...or three.
When working through the Volksgrenadier the best thing to directly also include are the Sperrdivision → Grenadierdivision → Volksgrenadierdivision rename/restructure, they were all ordered to be renamed into VGD in Oct 44.
Overall the later Volksgrenadier TOE currently in game is about right, just some minor things besides the common issues (SP Flak instead of towed Flak and Panzerschrecks too few). And then there is (for the first VGD TOE) the issue with the SMG squads that never existed, but I will make a separate Thread about all of this.

Volksgrenadier Div manpower per 9 September 44 = 11197
https://web.archive.org/web/20240613074 ... rength.pdf

The manpower as in that Strumpanzer document mentioned depends on if you want to count the field replacement battalion or not. From memory I remember that they were all created only with max a "Divisions-Kampfschule" instead of the whole battalion.

Manpower for the 44 inf div may have varied a bit, the early version may have missed some men in the Art Rgt (3x 105 and 3x 150 How were supposed to be added) and also depending on how much Flak they had (12x 20mm SP or towed or just 9x 37mm)
per OKH order from 20 May 44 it was supposed to be 12776 men
https://web.archive.org/web/20240515035 ... rength.pdf

Yes, there have been plenty of changes during 44 (and/or people simply calculating differently). Theoretically one would need to take the 3 TOEs from early 44 with about their current numbers and the TOE from September would need to be like ~300-400 lower, they did changes to the Supply troops combining them in a new structure the "Versorgungsregiment" in August (I think it was both a manpower+truck savings measure (not 100% sure)) and inbetween also some minor changes. I have main sources calculations from 22.Apr 12769, 13.Aug 12792, 4.Oct 12407.

[Denniss]

for VGDs I currently have the SP Flak to towed, missing 4x leIG, 2x sIG too much, missing Panzerschreck and manpower

[Wiedrock]

• The Bicycle Squads are 48 Squads. But should be (3Sq x 3Pl x 3Co)+(3Sq x 3Reg)=27+9=36
  Unless there is some Men being counted to those which I can't see.
  https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn149n1mai44.htm (3Squads x 3Pl x 3Co)
  + the Link below the Pioniers (3 Squads per Regiment)

As I had pointed out in this instance for the Recon Batallion having too many Squads (assuming 12 instead of 9 Squads per Company), I encountered the same being the case in (all) 10/1943 TOEs which seem to use a 4Sq x 3Pl x 3Co setup for their Line Infantry calculations instead of a 3Squad setup.

Working my way backwards in time, while adding the Regimental Pioneers in appropriate numbers to the 10/43 ID TOEs I have encountered some weirdness with the Line Infantry Squad numbers (and Bicycle Recon for that matter). Before I mostly glanced over Line Infantry Squad numbers, assuming it couldn't be wrong, but it seems like the same issue applies to the ID44 TOEs... ID45 and VGD are fine.

So now comming to the ID44 Setup of tis Thread, the KSTN 131n (of 01.12.1943) is supposed to be used, which you can see here. It similarly to the Bicycle example uses 3Sq x 3Pl Companies. The 16LMGs in some TOE overviews are missleading, as the 12/13LMG are (12/13 is just less LMGs in reserve in the 01.05.1944 KSTN). In both cases the reserve LMG are being accounted for but the Squad composition remains 3Sq x 3Pl.
This means if I do not mess things up that all ID44 TOEs have 216 Squads but actually should have:
3Sq x 3Pl x 3Co x 2Btl x 3Rgt = 162.

[Denniss]

that reduction would be no good due to loss of combat power and increasing suport squads to make up numbers.
I'd rather reduce the 45a inf div to 162 rifle squads so they at least see some of the historical reduction (and not only the best type 1 IDs get downgraded)

[Wiedrock]

Some examples on how the CV of the 44 Type 1 would change are attached.
One example uses a "1NM" higher MOREX in case of possible considerations for balance. It is tested in VtB, that's why NM is 55 instead of 60 - which it is for late43/early44. Note that an +1increase from 60→61 (100/0,6/0,6*0,61*0,61=103,36).
I don't think it'd be too harmful CV wise as is.

Additionally as I pointed out in other Threads, Soviet Rifle Squads 43 are generally too large for normal sized Divisions with the current Squad size increase from 9→11 which afaik never took place in this way and Soviet SMG squads seem to first of all start with 11Men, while 10 may have been the "normal" setup to begin with and they are additionally lacking the likely decrease to 9Men in late43/early44, so if all changes would be applied it'd balance itself out and no cutting corners of historic TOEs would be needed (If my findings are correct - I am always open to be educated otherwise).

[MechFO]

This means if I do not mess things up that all ID44 TOEs have 216 Squads but actually should have:
3Sq x 3Pl x 3Co x 2Btl x 3Rgt = 162.

Feldersatz Bat should be included anyway so that would bump it up, and arguably the reserve LMG, at least the Platoon ones, could be added as 2 man LMG teams.

[Denniss]

Feldersatz Bat should be included anyway so that would bump it up, and arguably the reserve LMG, at least the Platoon ones, could be added as 2 man LMG teams.

Should never be included other than as support

[Wiedrock]

This means if I do not mess things up that all ID44 TOEs have 216 Squads but actually should have:
3Sq x 3Pl x 3Co x 2Btl x 3Rgt = 162.

Feldersatz Bat should be included anyway so that would bump it up, and arguably the reserve LMG, at least the Platoon ones, could be added as 2 man LMG teams.

Naah, Axis can convert Support Squads to Rifle Squads, there is juts no way to trak it in game so it feels like non-existant.

2 support squads used to repair 10 x Rifle Squad 40 in 323rd Infantry Division
2 support squads used to repair 10 x Rifle Squad 40 in 340th Infantry Division
2 support squads used to repair 10 x Rifle Squad 40 in 371st Infantry Division
2 support squads used to repair 10 x Rifle Squad 40 in 376th Infantry Division
2 support squads used to repair 10 x Rifle Squad in 4th Cuneense Ital. Alpina Division
2 support squads used to repair 10 x Rifle Squad in 3rd Ravenna Ital. Semi-Mot. Infantry Division
2 support squads used to repair 10 x Rifle Squad in 2nd Sforzesca Ital. Semi-Mot. Infantry Division
-----------------------------------------
790 infantry squads repaired using support
-----------------------------------------

[MechFO]

Feldersatz Bat should be included anyway so that would bump it up, and arguably the reserve LMG, at least the Platoon ones, could be added as 2 man LMG teams.

Should never be included other than as support

Feldersatz Bat were routinely used directly in the line as a formed unit /and/or had their own area of responsibility.

This is as any field unit and unlike any support/supply/service unit.

The Alarm companies I/II are another story.

[MechFO]

Needed to look for the below, so separate post.

The FEB was counted to the Kampfstärke, the narrowest definition of fighting strength, together with infantry, pioneers etc. as is grouped together with the infantry.

WITE definition of "Kampfstärke" is somewhat narrower, since some forward HQ and support elements are excluded that the German definition included, but it is otherwise very close.

https://forum.axishistory.com/download/ ... &mode=view

[Wiedrock]

ID44_v02.png (830.54 KiB) Viewed 3198 times

Working on finishing the work on this. Some minor and one larger issue are there.
This should be the final version.

More improvements could probably be done when it comes to applying the best fitting TOE to the divisions it matches best (what they used historically - if that's wished for) or by "streamlining" upgrade paths between 1943→1944 TOEs to further avoid useless (historic/unhistoric) equipment swaps - Like I am not 100% settled on the AFV changes and numbers, but one may never be 100% convinced anyways .

1. OB:471 is missing 3x20mm Flak.
2. As pointed out before, the Squads are too many, 216 needs to become 162.

Working my way backwards in time, while adding the Regimental Pioneers in appropriate numbers to the 10/43 ID TOEs I have encountered some weirdness with the Line Infantry Squad numbers (and Bicycle Recon for that matter). Before I mostly glanced over Line Infantry Squad numbers, assuming it couldn't be wrong, but it seems like the same issue applies to the ID44 TOEs... ID45 and VGD are fine.

So now comming to the ID44 Setup of tis Thread, the KSTN 131n (of 01.12.1943) is supposed to be used, which you can see here. It similarly to the Bicycle example uses 3Sq x 3Pl Companies. The 16LMGs in some TOE overviews are missleading, as the 12/13LMG are (12/13 is just less LMGs in reserve in the 01.05.1944 KSTN). In both cases the reserve LMG are being accounted for but the Squad composition remains 3Sq x 3Pl.
This means if I do not mess things up that all ID44 TOEs have 216 Squads but actually should have:
3Sq x 3Pl x 3Co x 2Btl x 3Rgt = 162.

3. Adjustment/New calculation of Manpower (see calculations on the picture):
generally: Base+ Pak40+ AFV+ Flak+ 4-gunArtillery = ~12880/~12840
4. minor thing (my taste) - changed tha last remaining SP Flak to towed Flak) - may not be 100% historical, but the Wehrmacht anyways put Flaks on every vehicle...
5. Developers used the full 4 Gun Batteries. So there needs to be about ~129Men additional Manpower in all the TOEs.

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