INF without engineers build/expand base?

[PaxMondo]

Good to know.

[PaxMondo]

Updated

OK, so in summary what do we know.

First, Alfred posted this:
https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 0#p2621900

For those of you new who don't know Alfred, and as a reminder to the rest of us; there are 3 things about Alfred that you need to know:
1. Alfred is NEVER WRONG. He is so thorough in his research. I can do a fair job of online searching, but in comparison I am stumbling while Alfred flies.

2. Alfred had a connection to Henderson. Exactly what, I don't know, but he did. I don't find his name in the credits (maybe I'm blind or an alias), so he wasn't an official dev, but he clearly had some form of access.

Taking these two things in conjunction with my test results, here are my conclusions about entrenchment:
1. It takes engineers to entrench a unit in a non-base hex.
2. The apparent max level of entrenchment is 6.
3. The engineer squads only need be part of the TOE.

I think this last one was a dev oops, I believe that they intended engr squads to be needed, but looked at the TOE variable instead of what it actually present. Depending upon the naming convention being used, easy to do, but hard to spot. Given this observation, I believe this how Alfred made his conclusion in his Fortification 101 treatise. The devs intended that only engr could entrench, and this IS true. But I suspect not exactly how they intended. Close though. Rare cases to find the exception.

This is as definitive as I can do. Remember, I am not a dev, have never seen the code, and this is all based upon empirical testing.

3rd thing about Alfred: WE MISS HIM!!!!!

[btd64]

You need engineers for any type of construction....GP

I rest in peace....GP

[RangerJoe]

You need engineers for any type of construction....GP

I rest in peace....GP

I hope not unless you are dead. Or is that what someone states about part of your anatomy?

Part of my foot is hopefully Resting In Peace. I could show a picture of my two whole feet . . .

[GetAssista]

Taking these two things in conjunction with my test results, here are my conclusions about entrenchment:
1. It takes engineers to entrench a unit in a non-base hex.
2. The apparent max level of entrenchment is 3.
3. The engineer squads only need be part of the TOE.

All of those are wrong, sorry. At least have been on a previous beta when I tested it. Some of the tests are here: https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 6&t=306200

Anyone can build entrenchment in a non base hex regardless of engineers in TOE (see any Chinese front stalemate in AARs, with HQs digging in just fine). The speed wildly differs though between unit types. As does the upper limit of entrenchment. E.g. artillery digs in awfully slow compared to infantry. In my long siege of AI Vladivostok by the time IJA division regiments went to 5, arty was at 2 at best.

[Chris21wen]

Taking these two things in conjunction with my test results, here are my conclusions about entrenchment:
1. It takes engineers to entrench a unit in a non-base hex.
2. The apparent max level of entrenchment is 3.
3. The engineer squads only need be part of the TOE.

All of those are wrong, sorry. At least have been on a previous beta when I tested it. Some of the tests are here: https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 6&t=306200

Anyone can build entrenchment in a non base hex regardless of engineers in TOE (see any Chinese front stalemate in AARs, with HQs digging in just fine). The speed wildly differs though between unit types. As does the upper limit of entrenchment. E.g. artillery digs in awfully slow compared to infantry. In my long siege of AI Vladivostok by the time IJA division regiments went to 5, arty was at 2 at best.

First off I tested it prior to posting.

This is about building in none base hexes and it is important to remember that units dig in in none base hexes. E.g. Each unit has it's own fort level. For bases it's the hex that digs in and every unit in that hex helps and gets that level of fortification along with anything else present.

1. Did you bother to look at the pic posted? There is no indication in any pic that a unit WITHOUT engineers present digs in. Admittedly I did not run the test for long as the display did not indicate that they did. However here's another pic from an actual game against the AI. This unit has been in this location on it's own for a long time. No engineers and no indication that they are building enything. I have at least two other units without any engineer devices who have not constructed any forts no matter how long they have been in the hex.

Screenshot 2025-06-02 074751.jpg (37.06 KiB) Viewed 454 times

Now the confusion. In this pic the Arm car Co (no eng) is at level 1 and the Bde at level 4 (eng). I got this from the unit's info but the ground unit list only indicates a level 1 (building). I don't know where the ground unit list info comes from, it's often wrong so I'd ignore it. The unit's info is correct and contradicts the above. I'm guessing here but just maybe the engineers in the Bde somehow assisted the Co in constructioning it's level 1 fort? This is not an isolated case. E.g. I have a tank unit (no eng) at level 3 but stacked with four Divs.

Screenshot 2025-06-02 080455.jpg (27.38 KiB) Viewed 454 times

2. I have never notice what level units can build too before, I always assumed it was three. This possibly was once but they can certainly do so in v26b but those that have do have eng devices.

Screenshot 2025-06-02 075625.jpg (35.98 KiB) Viewed 454 times

3. It means units with engineer devices and not just engineer units. It does appear that engineers will not only dig themselves in but will assist others in doing so.

My conclusions are.
Units with no engineers present in the hex will not dig in. The should not be. Repeat what I said earlier, any squaddie can dig a hole (level 1), or pile sand bags (level 2)?
Any engineer present in a hex will assist other units to dig in, even if those units have no engineers themslves.
It takes much longer to dig in in the field than it does in a base.

[RangerJoe]

Taking these two things in conjunction with my test results, here are my conclusions about entrenchment:
1. It takes engineers to entrench a unit in a non-base hex.
2. The apparent max level of entrenchment is 3.
3. The engineer squads only need be part of the TOE.

All of those are wrong, sorry. At least have been on a previous beta when I tested it. Some of the tests are here: https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 6&t=306200

Anyone can build entrenchment in a non base hex regardless of engineers in TOE (see any Chinese front stalemate in AARs, with HQs digging in just fine). The speed wildly differs though between unit types. As does the upper limit of entrenchment. E.g. artillery digs in awfully slow compared to infantry. In my long siege of AI Vladivostok by the time IJA division regiments went to 5, arty was at 2 at best.

First off I tested it prior to posting.

This is about building in none base hexes and it is important to remember that units dig in in none base hexes. E.g. Each unit has it's own fort level. For bases it's the hex that digs in and every unit in that hex helps and gets that level of fortification along with anything else present.

1. Did you bother to look at the pic posted? There is no indication in any pic that a unit WITHOUT engineers present digs in. Admittedly I did not run the test for long as the display did not indicate that they did. However here's another pic from an actual game against the AI. This unit has been in this location on it's own for a long time. No engineers and no indication that they are building enything. I have at least two other units without any engineer devices who have not constructed any forts no matter how long they have been in the hex.
I have seen units without engineer build forts. It is slower for units without the engineers, it is slower for larger units.

Screenshot 2025-06-02 074751.jpg

Now the confusion. In this pic the Arm car Co (no eng) is at level 1 and the Bde at level 4 (eng). I got this from the unit's info but the ground unit list only indicates a level 1 (building). I don't know where the ground unit list info comes from, it's often wrong so I'd ignore it. The unit's info is correct and contradicts the above. I'm guessing here but just maybe the engineers in the Bde somehow assisted the Co in constructioning it's level 1 fort? This is not an isolated case. E.g. I have a tank unit (no eng) at level 3 but stacked with four Divs.
The level 1 (building) just means that they have level 1 forts and are still digging in.

Screenshot 2025-06-02 080455.jpg

2. I have never notice what level units can build too before, I always assumed it was three. This possibly was once but they can certainly do so in v26b but those that have do have eng devices.
I have seen them at level 4 and even higher. That makes the Chinese corps tough units on defense with a 3X defensive bonus.

Screenshot 2025-06-02 075625.jpg

3. It means units with engineer devices and not just engineer units. It does appear that engineers will not only dig themselves in but will assist others in doing so.

My conclusions are.
Units with no engineers present in the hex will not dig in. The should not be. Repeat what I said earlier, any squaddie can dig a hole (level 1), or pile sand bags (level 2)?
Any engineer present in a hex will assist other units to dig in, even if those units have no engineers themslves.
It takes much longer to dig in in the field than it does in a base.

Any unit can and will dig in. Some units take longer than others. Someone might look at a stack of units and see different fort level but units may have moved into the hex after other units were already there and digging in. Also, if a unit starts moving out and then is stopped, all forts are gone and then the process starts all over again.

[Chris21wen]

I'm going to disagree. Currently on the evidence I've seen in my current game against the AI and in testing, units without any engineers do not dig in. I they do it is a very, very long time. The example I gave the Cav unit has been in that location for a long time, at least 6 months and it shows no sign of digging in. If you put another unit with engineers in the same hex it will.

Maybe at sometime or other the units you have observed digging in did have another unit with eng present or maybe it's from an earlier version. Not contructiing above level 3 may also be from an earlier version.

This does need others to check.

Oh, and I know what 1 (building) means. What I was saying here is the info in a ground unit list for the location is not necessarily correct. The info in a unit info screen is.

Greater than 4 is possible as I'm getting the building indicated. That does not make it right. Who the hell hauls concrete into the jungle. It's no more right than a squaddie not digging in to level 1.

As far as I'm concerned they are some flaws in fort building.

[RangerJoe]

You are presuming that forts require concrete. There are lots of trees in the jungle plus there are also rocks.

There is no sense is discussing this further with you. You are always correct and . . .

[Chris21wen]

You are presuming that forts require concrete. There are lots of trees in the jungle plus there are also rocks.

There is no sense is discussing this further with you. You are always correct and . . .

Joe your getting personnal.

I will alway admit when I'm wrong and I can only report what I see in front of me and I currently see units with no engineer present in the hex not building forts. I will happily change that opinion if I see otherwise.