An Aussie Affair.

[mogami]

Hi, You might have changed the preset missions from sweep to escort but did you also change the alt from 100 feet?
Escorts flying at 100 feet to target would have to do a lot of climbing to engage US aircraft attacking bombers. This would put the US AC at a huge advantage. Other then that you just had really bad luck. (I think my high for A6M2 shot down during PH strike was 9)

[TIMJOT]

Singapore ate three divisions worth of a invasion fleet as it should.

Manilla based on map layout didn't work out quite so well, Bataan ends up with Corregidor CD unit (which would wipe out the fleet completely) but can't fire into the neighboring hex (Manilla). I know this has been tossed around before with various potential solutions, but I can only test/play what I am given

If the CD is not there to fire, it's not there to fire. Not much we can do about it at this point.

Thats the reason I asked if they were going down the historical path or going all out, unrestricted by rules that do not exist in the game at this point in time...

Fair enough Mr.Frag. I was under the impression the Corregidore CDs were based in the Manila hex. The CDs in the Bataan hex would be a fair enough solution if ships HAD to pass through that hex and were subject to fire in order to enter the Manila hex. Otherwise the CDs should probably be based in the Manila hex IMHO. I hope some solution can be worked out.

[Mr.Frag]

Hmm, it's a tough one really, if you move them out of Bataan, it would become a lightweight threat and the landing would be made there.

Almost wonder whether the solution would be to merge the two together in the interests of game play and have a Manilla/Bataan base with the troops from both. Question then becomes what happens to Clark ...

The joys of hex based games and making the map grid fit the world :rolleyes:

[mogami]

Hi, What about making Manila a 2 hex city. Place the port in one hex with the guns and an airfield and any resource next to it (without a port)
The non port hex would have no access to the sea. With a rail connection to simulate their being the same city. (for movement of resource and supply)

It would still be possible to capture part of the city without landings (march up from south or over from east)

[TIMJOT]

[QUOTE=Luskan]This is exactly why I didn't pile a bunch of troops into Manila. that and the dozens of pt boats - ease of bombing etc. [QUOTE]
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Dozens of PTs? The Asiatic Fleet had only 6 PT boats in the PI. So I assume either the FOW is misleading you or the OOB is incorrect.

USAFFE did take over 5 British built MBTs from the Philipine Army. PTQ111 "Luzon", PTQ112 "Abra", PTQ113 "Agusan", PTQ114 "Danday" and PTQ115 "?"

Are these by any chance in the oob?

Just a thought, but it might be time to put up a thread; ala Kids Map corrections thread; for OOB corrections and or suggestions, with of course appropriate source references. It might save 2by3 and Matrix a lot of time finalizing the oob.

Thanks again guys for the AAR

[Mr.Frag]

Might work Mogami, the real problem is that Corregidor is not a place that the Allies are going to loose. It literally was a collection of fortresses built for the express purpose of preventing travel into and out of Manilla Bay.

It did not fall until Japan took Bataan and moved in guns that outranged the fortresses. Without that, it would have never fallen. May 6th, 1942 it finally surrendered having been pounded into submission by heavy guns at range.

Perhaps we can make it a TF of ships (each representing one of the gun batteries) with a speed of 0, tons of AA guns, and tons of big guns

A little picture of the place ...

[TIMJOT]

Hmm, it's a tough one really, if you move them out of Bataan, it would become a lightweight threat and the landing would be made there.

Almost wonder whether the solution would be to merge the two together in the interests of game play and have a Manilla/Bataan base with the troops from both. Question then becomes what happens to Clark ...

The joys of hex based games and making the map grid fit the world :rolleyes:

Personally I dont think bataan should be a beach hex. Its geography made it extemely unsuitable for landings. The IJA tried twice and were totally aniliated.

Regarding the Fort CDs my preference would be to make the sea hex that adjoins both bataan and Manila hexes into the fortress hex, with special rules that allowed it to fire into Bataan and Manila. I know anything that complicated is unlikely so I think the simplist way would to put the "Fortified" CDs into Manila. If this allows Manila the city to hold out much longer than historical, So be it. For all practical purposes Manila was useless as a base until Corrigedore fell anyway.

[TIMJOT]

Might work Mogami, the real problem is that Corregidor is not a place that the Allies are going to loose. It literally was a collection of fortresses built for the express purpose of preventing travel into and out of Manilla Bay.

It did not fall until Japan took Bataan and moved in guns that outranged the fortresses. Without that, it would have never fallen. May 6th, 1942 it finally surrendered having been pounded into submission by heavy guns at range.

Perhaps we can make it a TF of ships (each representing one of the gun batteries) with a speed of 0, tons of AA guns, and tons of big guns

A little picture of the place ...

I believe the problem wasnt that the guns were outranged. It was that the IJA guns were concealed. Corridore's gunners could not get a fix on them. They tried sending Pts and P-40s to locate them but they were unable. The IJA gunners enjoyed the advantage of spotting planes circling overhead to call in fire. Even so the guns didnt succeed in pounding Corrigedore into submission. With proper supplies corredore could have held out indefinitely. It took a direct assault to finally capture Corrigedore.

Great pic BTW

[Nikademus]

Nothing personal Mr Frag, as I am sure that is a perfectly viable strategy in this current alpha build, but if that utterly nonsensical strategy results in anything less than mass sepu-ku for the IJN, then something is very, very wrong.


NOTE: The minefields guarding Manila bay were "wired" and could be manually detonated from a control center on Corrigedore. Not to mention those MSW would be sweeping under the sights of:

8 x 14" guns
8 x 12" guns
22 x 12" motars
2 x 10" guns
2 x 8" guns
11 x 6" guns
38 x 3" guns
21 x 155 mm guns

Why the Manila & Singapore CDs are modeled so lightly in the game is beyond me, when you considered historically the Japanese did all they could to avoid them, its inexcusable.

Regards

Problem or better "Challenge" TIMJOT is that, like the PH attack, the Manila/Bataan/Coregidor situation has unique aspects to which the model is hard pressed to represent. The only way within the current engine to make all these defenses mutually supporting would be to combine the Manila and Bataan hex locations......undesireable IMO as it would make the IJN player's job all the easier (as well as make the map look funny)

A simple fix in the OOB can partially resolve the problem. Currently Manila is missing its own CD units (Fort Drum primarily and it's sister fort) Adding them would make any seaborne landing in Manila very costly encouraging the IJN player to do it the traditional way and advance on the city from the SE. This wont stop a determined IJN player though but there's little that can be done about that. The difference between "game" and "real life" cannot be completely overcome......even if a dozen transports are lost, thats ok in alot of player's books.

As for Corregidor and it's importance as a fortress. I think its a bit of an overstatement. Logistics are the key and the lack thereof will prevent any long term siege. (Fort Drum after all for example 'theoretically' could have held out for months on end and had plenty of ammo but had to surrender along with Corregidor because food stocks were low......technically though the base was never conquored)

many of Corregidor's guns/morters were of the outdated "disapearing" type as well and were very vulnerable to air attack, having been designed before the era of the aircraft really came into dominance.

Guess what i'm trying to say is that its probably not going to be considered worth the "coding time" to try to change the game engine to represent these "fortresses". Its a good 'wish list' item but just trying to be realistic in expectations. My take is that its a decent enough representation if the CD units can disuade the Japanese player from trying to accelerate the fall of the P. too fast by using FT and regular seaborne invasions into these two key hexes, making a overland journey the only practical route.

My own playtests find it much easier and less costly to just overland it to Manila and Bataan via the orig invasion sites.

[Mike Scholl]

Any map that 2by3 comes up with for the final version of the game HAS to
limit sea access to the port of Manilla. It was physically impossible EXCEPT by
passing the forts at the mouth of the bay. If 2by3 can't get the basic geogra-
phy right, what hope is there for the rest of the game?

Maybe what they need to look into is the old Red Simonson trick of making
some HEXSIDES impassable to shipping. If the end result is that you can only
sail into Manilla by going past Corregadore then the most significant point
will have been made.

[Nikademus]

I think your overreacting Mike. The Manila situation is meerly an OOB one, easily fixed and having seen the thread devoted to "OOB corrections/additions" i can tell you I do not envy Rich Dione's and Ron S's job. There are thousands of entries to get right. Its a tough and often thankless job.

Be patient.

[TIMJOT]

Nik

Yes I agree in the grand theme of things. It is not important enough to change the game engine. I just want the Manila base to have sufficient enough "FORTIFIED" CDs to make direct landings there prohibitive (Suicide). There is no reason to place any of the CDs on Bataan because its only significance historically is that holding it keeps Manila bay closed and since in the game a player can enter Manila without passing through the Bataan hex. It is moot to put the CDs there.

I would prefer that Manila get all the CDs. As I said in an earlier post. I do not think anyone should have a problem, If doing so prolongs Manila city from capture well beyond historical, because as a base it was for all practical purposes useless until the Bay forts were captured. Nichols/Nielson airfields were insignificant, but if need be a extra base dot could be provided outside Manila.

[TIMJOT]

I think your overreacting Mike. The Manila situation is meerly an OOB one, easily fixed and having seen the thread devoted to "OOB corrections/additions" i can tell you I do not envy Rich Dione's and Ron S's job. There are thousands of entries to get right. Its a tough and often thankless job.

Be patient.

Yes I agree its basically an oob question if by fixing the oob you mean adding special "Fixed/Fortified" CD units to the game. These units should be much more accurate and much more resistant to enemy fire than normal CD units.

Regards

[Nikademus]

Yes. Mainly want to see Fort Drum and her sister's 8x14/40's in action They would make any invasion pay.

One thing i am noticing that might prove a useful suggestion within the game engine is prioritization of targets. When minefields are present, i think coastal guns should consider MSW's a priority target and if they can get enough hits, disrupt/degrade their ability to sweep mines. That way mines and CD guns would be able to work more "in unison". Right now i get the impression that they are treated totally as seperate pieces. Shades of Galipoli come to mind.

In the absense of mines, priority targets should be transports and (range permitting based on size) major warships.

[Mike Scholl]

I think your overreacting Mike. The Manila situation is meerly an OOB one, easily fixed and having seen the thread devoted to "OOB corrections/additions" i can tell you I do not envy Rich Dione's and Ron S's job. There are thousands of entries to get right. Its a tough and often thankless job.

Be patient.

I'm perfectly willing to be "patient" if there is a promise of a rational solution.
But I find a situation that allows entering Manilla Harbor with a ship from the
East to be rediculous! Apparently I missed the building of the Luzon Canal---
I thought you had to sail around the island to get to Manilla Bay.

If SPI could get it right 25 years ago, I don't see why 2by3 can't do it now.
These guys are supposed to be the "top of the heap" in wargame design, so
I don't think it's out of line to ask that they START by getting the basic Geo-
graphy right. I don't think the suggested ideas of piling more historical inac-
curacies in to try and overcome the physical inaccuracies is a road we should
want to go down. It would be far easier to design a game on the Battle of
Waterloo if you just made the map a flat plain. But then you're left with the
tactical question of "why the H-ll would Wellington chose to make a stand in
such terrain?" If you get the "basics" right you will have far fewer problems
in the long run.

[TIMJOT]

I'm perfectly willing to be "patient" if there is a promise of a rational solution.
But I find a situation that allows entering Manilla Harbor with a ship from the
East to be rediculous! Apparently I missed the building of the Luzon Canal---
I thought you had to sail around the island to get to Manilla Bay.

If SPI could get it right 25 years ago, I don't see why 2by3 can't do it now.
These guys are supposed to be the "top of the heap" in wargame design, so
I don't think it's out of line to ask that they START by getting the basic Geo-
graphy right. I don't think the suggested ideas of piling more historical inac-
curacies in to try and overcome the physical inaccuracies is a road we should
want to go down. It would be far easier to design a game on the Battle of
Waterloo if you just made the map a flat plain. But then you're left with the
tactical question of "why the H-ll would Wellington chose to make a stand in
such terrain?" If you get the "basics" right you will have far fewer problems
in the long run.

Hi Mike

I agree with you in theory, but what I think Nik is saying is that its only one location on the map and its probably not important enough strategically to code special rules for it. However, if you look at the WitP map you will see there is a hex that abutts both the Bataan hex and Manila hex. Right now its an empty sea hex with just a sliver of Mindoro Island. If it was my game that is the hex I would make the Fortress hex. I would then code it so that the only entry to Manila would be through that adjacent hexside.

That being said, I think a workable compromise within the current engine, would be to make the Manila hex a Manila/BayForts hex. The capture of Manila would assume this meant the capture of the forts. That base hex should be sufficiently fortified that it is feasible for it to hold out much closer to the historical forts than the historical city did. Its really that simple. The significance of Manila is its port. The capture of the city didnot in itself not open that port. So in the game Manila/Fortress lasting holding out to say May should not be construed as somehow unhistirical. Just make the Manila hex extremely difficult to take and it will mimick the realworld historical situation well enough.

[TIMJOT]

But I find a situation that allows entering Manilla Harbor with a ship from the
East to be rediculous! Apparently I missed the building of the Luzon Canal---
I thought you had to sail around the island to get to Manilla Bay.

BTW, I believe Nik, was speaking of landing on the east coast and attacking overland to Manila. That what happen historically (specifically elements of the IJA 16th Division landing at Lamon bay on the east coast)

[mogami]

Hi, The real problem with Manila in the game is the port is open when the city is captured. The city can be captured by landing else where capturing that hex and then marching to Manila and capturing it. There is no reason for the Japanese to ever run the guns. (they didn't) Historically the port was not usable because the Forts remained after the capture of the city.
It will always be easier to capture Manila by marching to it. There is no way to have it built enough to last from Dec to May. The only thing I can think of is require all unloading in the manila hex to be 'over the beach' until the fall of the Bataan Hex. (i know this has nothing to do with the Manila Bay forts. We'd just assume they surrender along with the forces at Bataan. I really don't like special code rules but i can think of anything else. The AI and many Japanese players will always just send convoys to manila as soon as they capture the place and this will greatly ease the supply problems for the Japanese at Clark Field and Bataan. Either you make the city its self too hard or you make the forts too easy. Thats the problem.

[TIMJOT]

Hi, The real problem with Manila in the game is the port is open when the city is captured. The city can be captured by landing else where capturing that hex and then marching to Manila and capturing it. There is no reason for the Japanese to ever run the guns. (they didn't) Historically the port was not usable because the Forts remained after the capture of the city.
It will always be easier to capture Manila hex by marching to it. There is no way to have it built enough to last from Dec to May. The only thing I can think of is require all unloading in the manila hex to be 'over the beach' until the fall of the Bataan Hex. (i know this has nothing to do with the Manila Bay forts. We'd just assume they surrender along with the forces at Bataan. I really don't like special code rules but i can think of anything else. The AI and many Japanese players will always just send convoys to manila as soon as they capture the place and this will greatly ease the supply problems for the Japanese at Clark Field and Bataan. Either you make the city its self too hard or you make the forts too easy. Thats the problem.

Yes Mogami, Thats my point. The Manila hex in the game should not be considered just the city, but also including the Forts. These forts should be represented by Fortress CD units in the Manila Hex. This CDs should be expecially resistant to attack and arcurate. The inclusion of these units should make it extremely difficult for player to capture Manila hex without overwelming force and many engineering units. All of the normal USAFFE land units could be destroyed, but as long as there is one of these CD units survive the base is not captured and the port remains closed.

[mogami]

Hi, I realize that. My point is making the CD unit strong enough to last to May would make it impossible to capture. Since this unit would have to add it's factors to any combat the entire PI army could sit on Manila. Once the supply ran out the whole stack would die together. (and that would be long before May.) So there needs to be a way to capture Manila (as historical) but not gain the use of the port (as historical)