Countering the Zero Wall

Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific covers the campaigns for New Guinea, New Britain, New Ireland and the Solomon chain.

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RE: Countering the Zero Wall

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: crsutton

I agree to a point with you. Yours is a valid argument for game balance but not for historical accuracy. Japanese zeros and pilots were at a disadvantage to american aircraft and pilots from about August 1942 on. The reasons are varied, better tactics, better built planes, more reliable planes, better supports service, better flow of supplies, better mechanics, more spare parts, and most important planes with radios vs planes without radios. (sort of like fighting partially blinded)

I agree that overall, it all works out and I think the Allies have as good a chance or better of winning the big campaings, so I am not complaining too much. As I said, there are ways around the disparity.

However, historically there is no basis for the zero to be so superior to the P40 or wildcat as it is in the game. It just did not happen.

I think the biggest issue here is that we don't know what's inside UV game engine (i.e. so-called "black box")...


We simply don't know what matters most in air-to-air combat:

- numbers?
- leader?
- altitude advantage?
- speed?
- rate of climb?
- numbers?
- pilot morale?
- pilot experience?
- pilot (and aircraft) fatigue?


What we do know is that UV designers created few Japanese CV (and two land ones) Zero squadrons with most excellent pilots that have higher EXP (experience) than USN CV pilots.

We also know that Japanese pilot situation quickly deteriorates - needed and unneeded (i.e. excess) pilot replacements quickly "water down" this high EXP Zero squadrons.


So... it all balances out eventually (or if you prefer - Allies have distinctive pilot advantage in just few months of gameplay when Japanese start getting en-mass needed and unneeded pilots in EXP range of 15-25...


The only question, IMHO, worth discussing is if the initial EXP advantage of few Zero squadrons historically warranted.

Again, IMHO, I strongly believe that is correct since the Japanese did bloody their pilots years before the war against allies started (and in combat all training is almost irrelevant until you really feel the first combat and bloody the men)...


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RE: Countering the Zero Wall

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: crsutton

I agree to a point with you. Yours is a valid argument for game balance but not for historical accuracy. Japanese zeros and pilots were at a disadvantage to american aircraft and pilots from about August 1942 on. The reasons are varied, better tactics, better built planes, more reliable planes, better supports service, better flow of supplies, better mechanics, more spare parts, and most important planes with radios vs planes without radios. (sort of like fighting partially blinded)

I agree that overall, it all works out and I think the Allies have as good a chance or better of winning the big campaings, so I am not complaining too much. As I said, there are ways around the disparity.

However, historically there is no basis for the zero to be so superior to the P40 or wildcat as it is in the game. It just did not happen.

I think the biggest issue here is that we don't know what's inside UV game engine (i.e. so-called "black box")...


We simply don't know what matters most in air-to-air combat:

- numbers?
- leader?
- altitude advantage?
- speed?
- rate of climb?
- numbers?
- pilot morale?
- pilot experience?
- pilot (and aircraft) fatigue?


What we do know is that UV designers created few Japanese CV (and two land ones) Zero squadrons with most excellent pilots that have higher EXP (experience) than USN CV pilots.

We also know that Japanese pilot situation quickly deteriorates - needed and unneeded (i.e. excess) pilot replacements quickly "water down" this high EXP Zero squadrons.


So... it all balances out eventually (or if you prefer - Allies have distinctive pilot advantage in just few months of gameplay when Japanese start getting en-mass needed and unneeded pilots in EXP range of 15-25...


The only question, IMHO, worth discussing is if the initial EXP advantage of few Zero squadrons historically warranted.

Again, IMHO, I strongly believe that is correct since the Japanese did bloody their pilots years before the war against allies started (and in combat all training is almost irrelevant until you really feel the first combat and bloody the men)...


Leo "Apollo11"
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RE: Countering the Zero Wall

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: crsutton
ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: crsutton

I agree to a point with you. Yours is a valid argument for game balance but not for historical accuracy. Japanese zeros and pilots were at a disadvantage to american aircraft and pilots from about August 1942 on. The reasons are varied, better tactics, better built planes, more reliable planes, better supports service, better flow of supplies, better mechanics, more spare parts, and most important planes with radios vs planes without radios. (sort of like fighting partially blinded)

I agree that overall, it all works out and I think the Allies have as good a chance or better of winning the big campaings, so I am not complaining too much. As I said, there are ways around the disparity.

However, historically there is no basis for the zero to be so superior to the P40 or wildcat as it is in the game. It just did not happen.

I think the biggest issue here is that we don't know what's inside UV game engine (i.e. so-called "black box")...


We simply don't know what matters most in air-to-air combat:

- numbers?
- leader?
- altitude advantage?
- speed?
- rate of climb?
- numbers?
- pilot morale?
- pilot experience?
- pilot (and aircraft) fatigue?


What we do know is that UV designers created few Japanese CV (and two land ones) Zero squadrons with most excellent pilots that have higher EXP (experience) than USN CV pilots.

We also know that Japanese pilot situation quickly deteriorates - needed and unneeded (i.e. excess) pilot replacements quickly "water down" this high EXP Zero squadrons.


So... it all balances out eventually (or if you prefer - Allies have distinctive pilot advantage in just few months of gameplay when Japanese start getting en-mass needed and unneeded pilots in EXP range of 15-25...


The only question, IMHO, worth discussing is if the initial EXP advantage of few Zero squadrons historically warranted.

Again, IMHO, I strongly believe that is correct since the Japanese did bloody their pilots years before the war against allies started (and in combat all training is almost irrelevant until you really feel the first combat and bloody the men)...


Leo "Apollo11"

Ignore that last one.

Well, yes... and we all have to remember that our favorite scenarios, #17 and #19 give the Japanese a much better pool of pilots so it is hard to make historical comparasions based on them. As I said before my only real complaint it the massive number of air casualties (to both sides) that occur in large air battles. They are out of proportion what really did happen in large battles. For some reason, small battles work much better. I think this is just a coding problem where an adjustment needs to be made.
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RE: Countering the Zero Wall

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: crsutton

Ignore that last one.

Never saw what you wrote.

Well, yes... and we all have to remember that our favorite scenarios, #17 and #19 give the Japanese a much better pool of pilots so it is hard to make historical comparasions based on them. As I said before my only real complaint it the massive number of air casualties (to both sides) that occur in large air battles. They are out of proportion what really did happen in large battles. For some reason, small battles work much better. I think this is just a coding problem where an adjustment needs to be made.

I agree that massive air battles can be "strange" sometimes but I am 100% sure that good people at Matrix/2By3 will fix that for WitP...


BTW, I have several PBEMs going on in Scen#19 where I am Japanese player (in all those games many months of gameplay passed).

In essence I am swamped with unwanted (excess) pilots and, since they keep on coming every day, the intended higher Japanese pilot ratings never happen.

Every squadron I have has excess pilots and they, like I wrote above, keep coming every day.

The saddest thing is that they constantly arrive with EXP 15-25 thus making many (I will not say all because of my opponents might be reading this) air units almost useless...

My personal record is "Dave" hydroplane squadron with 14 MAX aircraft that currently has 65 pilots.

All the recon/fighter/bomber squadrons also suffer from same problem (27 Betty bombers and 45 pilots for example).


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RE: Countering the Zero Wall

Post by Damien Thorn »

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
The saddest thing is that they constantly arrive with EXP 15-25 thus making many (I will not say all because of my opponents might be reading this) air units almost useless...

Maybe the home islands cut the training program completely. Now they just send the guys directly from the recruitment office right to the front. I think EXP 15 for a pilot means he's seen a plane once. EXP 25 are the real recruitment aces; they've actually touched a plane before. [:)]
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RE: Countering the Zero Wall

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

Maybe the home islands cut the training program completely. Now they just send the guys directly from the recruitment office right to the front. I think EXP 15 for a pilot means he's seen a plane once. EXP 25 are the real recruitment aces; they've actually touched a plane before. [:)]

<SIGH>


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RE: Countering the Zero Wall

Post by crsutton »

[
[
I agree that massive air battles can be "strange" sometimes but I am 100% sure that good people at Matrix/2By3 will fix that for WitP...


BTW, I have several PBEMs going on in Scen#19 where I am Japanese player (in all those games many months of gameplay passed).

In essence I am swamped with unwanted (excess) pilots and, since they keep on coming every day, the intended higher Japanese pilot ratings never happen.

Every squadron I have has excess pilots and they, like I wrote above, keep coming every day.

The saddest thing is that they constantly arrive with EXP 15-25 thus making many (I will not say all because of my opponents might be reading this) air units almost useless...

My personal record is "Dave" hydroplane squadron with 14 MAX aircraft that currently has 65 pilots.

All the recon/fighter/bomber squadrons also suffer from same problem (27 Betty bombers and 45 pilots for example).


Leo "Apollo11"
[/quote]

Leo,

What is the date of your campaign? I have one going as the Japanese and am about to reach Jan 1 of 43. I have yet to see this problem with the extra pilots-but have heard of it before. Although I have lost over 2200 planes, my squadron pilot pools are about normal. My pilot quality has dropped but not excessively.

My second question. These campaigns can be long. Did you start you campaign before the last patch or after? I have discovered that some of the bugs from games started pre patch can still stick around afterwards. My game is over a year old and has been through at least two patches?

I have two more campaigns going as the Japanese but they are in the early months.

I don't expect any more patches in this game. It works OK but Gary and Matrix are gonna focus on the new game. I hope they retro some stuff.
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RE: Countering the Zero Wall

Post by PzB74 »

You still can't match my Mavis sqd with 9 planes and 114 pilots [:(]
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RE: Countering the Zero Wall

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: DoomedMantis

This is being looked at now, that is to increase the effect that pilot experience has on fights
ORIGINAL: pauk

greetings,

I'm concerned that this will be also case in WiTP, because i posted in WiTP thread (SEE: pilot transfers) and there is no clear anwser will be pilot experience much more involved in next (APSOLUTLY THE BEST GAME EVER) game...
it's too late for changing in UV, but not in WiTP....

Great! I'm pleased with this info, pretty sure that other guys also want increased effect of pilot experience. It could be more interesting play on Japanese side trying to save them for desperate defence in the 44, and knowing that those aces can put some devil in allied bomber fleets. Of course, im not suggesting that aces with rating 99 or some becomes invincible, especially if they oposed to the advanced US fighters... all i want is lover kill ratio (i hate 8:1 against zero!) then we have in UV

Thx for response...
PS
Sorry for disturbing UV forum
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RE: Countering the Zero Wall

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: crsutton

What is the date of your campaign? I have one going as the Japanese and am about to reach Jan 1 of 43. I have yet to see this problem with the extra pilots-but have heard of it before. Although I have lost over 2200 planes, my squadron pilot pools are about normal. My pilot quality has dropped but not excessively.

My second question. These campaigns can be long. Did you start you campaign before the last patch or after? I have discovered that some of the bugs from games started pre patch can still stick around afterwards. My game is over a year old and has been through at least two patches?

I have two more campaigns going as the Japanese but they are in the early months.

I don't expect any more patches in this game. It works OK but Gary and Matrix are gonna focus on the new game. I hope they retro some stuff.

All campaigns are several months od (started inUV v2.30) and they are around 150+ days into Scen#19.


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RE: Countering the Zero Wall

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: PzB

You still can't match my Mavis sqd with 9 planes and 114 pilots [:(]

Ouch... this is even more bad than my "Dave" squadron (14 Aircraft MAX and 65+ pilots)... [:(]


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RE: Countering the Zero Wall

Post by pasternakski »

I'm gettin' close, Leo. I've got a PBY squadron with 12 planes, 97 pilots - AND THREE KILLS!
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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excess pilots

Post by mogami »

Hi, I wonder if we can track down the reason so many pilots are placed in air units. I do not get these really high numbers. (my most overloaded unit has 36 aircraft and 44 pilots) But then I also withdraw partial units quite often when I see overloading taking place. (have 2 units of same type ac in same base. If one has excess pilots fly it till it has at least one damaged ac. Now transfer group to new base. damaged ac and excess pilots are left behind. Now withdraw (do not disband) partial unit. damaged ac goes to other group but all excess pilots withdrawn. Partial units do not reform so pilots go back into pool.
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RE: excess pilots

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I wonder if we can track down the reason so many pilots are placed in air units. I do not get these really high numbers. (my most overloaded unit has 36 aircraft and 44 pilots) But then I also withdraw partial units quite often when I see overloading taking place. (have 2 units of same type ac in same base. If one has excess pilots fly it till it has at least one damaged ac. Now transfer group to new base. damaged ac and excess pilots are left behind. Now withdraw (do not disband) partial unit. damaged ac goes to other group but all excess pilots withdrawn. Partial units do not reform so pilots go back into pool.

Mogami in our current UV PBEM I don't have single unit that doesn't have excess pilots...[:(]

I also tried your "recipe" many times but it never works out...

I tried that many many times in both my H2H test and PBEMs...

Unfortunately this never works for me because all pilots do transfer with
main force (i.e. undamaged aircraft).


Example:

You have 27 aircraft in Betty squadron and 45 pilots. Out of those 27
aircraft 3 are damaged.

If I transfer the 24 undamaged aircraft somewhere else 42 pilots would go
with them (i.e. 42 pilots with 24 undamaged aircraft) and just 3 pilots
would stay with 3 damaged aircraft.


BTW, I searched the forums and found that you posted this there as well but
other people also had the same thing in saw and it never worked for them
either... [:(]


Did you, perhaps, do several consecutive transfer hops perhaps (i.e. move
unit 3 times in 3 days)?


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RE: excess pilots

Post by mogami »

Hi, Once again I am baffled because this always works for me and it works for other people I've talked to. When a group moves to a new base only repaired aircraft move (some might arrive damaged) and the number of pilots moved should match the number of AC that arrived at new base.
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RE: excess pilots

Post by CMDRMCTOAST »

VMF-224 AT WUNPUKO
3 PLANES READY
1 IN REPAIR
24 PILOTS

TRANSFERED TO LUGANVILLE
3 PLANES 3 PILOTS

WITHDREW GROUP
AND 1 PLANE SHOWED UP IN THE OTHER SQUADRON
NO EXCESS PILOTS.

Mogami you have solved a problem I have had for a while now.[&o]
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I have idea...

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Once again I am baffled because this always works for me and it works for other people I've talked to. When a group moves to a new base only repaired aircraft move (some might arrive damaged) and the number of pilots moved should match the number of AC that arrived at new base.

I have idea...


For what side did you use your "recipe"?

Allies or Japanese?


In my PBEM games as Allies I am very satisfied with my excess pilots (i.e. I don't want to loose them) and they come in rather trained.

I only have problem with PBEMs where I playa s Japanese and where I really do want to get rid of the excess pilots since they come in with EXP 15-25...


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RE: excess pilots

Post by Philwd »

Hi Mogami,
I've tried this. Every time the excess pilots go with the transferred sqdn. Best I have been able to do is get 4 pilots remaining with the damaged airplane.

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RE: excess pilots

Post by bilbow »

I've thried this method too, everal times. The excess pilots always transfer, leaving the damaged a/c with 0-3 extra pilots at the original base.
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RE: excess pilots

Post by Monkey »

Hi guys, even though I'm a total newbie and only just getting to Dec 42 in SC19 v the ai I have noticed that excess pilots allows you to fly more missions as such, because there's less fatigue in the sqdn as a whole.

As for the the Allied Air forces I have found that whenever possible, I give them low altitude sweeps (100ft from PM to Lae is my personal fave) , they will fly 2 missions a day and in no time at all their exp soon tops up to an average of 80/90 for the whole sqdn, rotate the sqdns carefully and when P38's arrive you will soon have some really effective units to take the Zero Wall to the cleaners. Now Iv'e written this it looks like a really gamey tactic![:)]
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