CV Question

Tiornu · Post by **Tiornu** » Sat May 01, 2004 6:46 pm

As a single weapon system, the TBD and its torpedo could justifiably be called a dog, but that's mainly the fault of the torpedo. Due to its lesser speed, it didn't generate all the quirks of the sub and DD torpedoes, but it was a fragile piece of equipment that demanded a low, slow drop. This was the killer at Midway (apart from the lack of fighter cover).
The TBD did have a limited production run. I believe that reflects the USN ambivalence about torpedo planes in general rather than the TBD specifically. Instead the TBD was acknowledged as cutting-edge when it appeared in 1937.

Rendova · Post by **Rendova** » Sat May 01, 2004 7:20 pm

I agree the slow speed of the TBD wasn't that much of a hinderence because the Torpedo required a slow launch speed away, and a low launch.

It wasn't a bad plane just short legged and outdated.... Greatest Naval Battles 3 had a Plan Orange Scenerio which was set in 1939 in the Philipines and in that setting vs 1939 AA the TBD held up really well. does anyone know are there any left?

doosekoop · Post by **doosekoop** » Sun May 02, 2004 6:57 am

the zero's problem wasnt that it got its wings cut off it had no selfsealing fuel tanks so a couple hits made the fuel leak and a couple more lit them up , look at the gun camera footage most zeros shown catch fire rather quickly after the initial hits. plus no armor in the cockpit didnt help the pilots out much either.

Rendova · Post by **Rendova** » Sun May 02, 2004 2:53 pm

The Zero also had issues with Alerion lock and high speeds, (basically they could not turn above a certain speed.)

DoomedMantis · Post by **DoomedMantis** » Mon May 03, 2004 12:24 am

could, or couldn't

Rendova · Post by **Rendova** » Mon May 03, 2004 1:16 am

ORIGINAL: DoomedMantis

could, or couldn't

couldn't, fixed it [:)]

sven6345789 · Post by **sven6345789** » Mon May 03, 2004 2:10 am

the zero was superior in dogfighting at low to average speed. Any allied plane playing along would loose(except for the Hellcats, of course). If they didn't play along (like diving out of combat, or using hit and run tactics) the japanese were at a disadvantage.
The P-38 was an expert on this (hit and run, hit again). the P-40 could outdive the zero once, but couldn't climb fast enough for a second run.same the wildcat.
in late war, with the Ki-84, for example, the japanese could meet the allies on an even base, but by that time, the allies were much more experienced.

Rendova · Post by **Rendova** » Mon May 03, 2004 2:43 am

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

in late war, with the Ki-84, for example, the japanese could meet the allies on an even base, but by that time, the allies were much more experienced.

That and the you had 1000 hellcats, 1000 Corisars, 2,000 P-38's, 500 P-51's and two C-47 Dakota's chasing 6 Ki-84's

neuromancer · Post by **neuromancer** » Mon May 03, 2004 11:29 pm

ORIGINAL: Rendova

ORIGINAL: Tiornu
The Devastator was a piece of junk? I must disagree. It was getting long in the tooth, but the plane performed quite well. How many TBD's were shot down prior to Midway? Not a one. A few had succumbed to accidents or fuel exhaustion, and that's it.

It wasn't a piece of junk but it was completely outdated... I thought a couple were shot down at Coral Sea but maybe I am wrong on that. The plane gets a bad rap because they got slaughtered at Midway, I doubt 15 unescorted TBF would have done much better. In fact 6 TBF did attack at midway and were all shot down, so blaming the disater on the TBD's and not on poor coordination is wrong. Still though the TBD was a dog and its short range had made it rather ineffective. Not to mention after Midway there were almost none left, they only built 130. But it did fair very well in the early carrier raids.

I think that is adequate enough. In 1943 the Mustang was a pretty hot plane, but would you want to go against modern aircraft in it?

Okay, maybe my phrasing was poor, but in the sky in 1942, it really wasn't well suited to the task. It was obsolete, and thus - at that point - 'a piece of junk'. It was slow, unmanueverable, and short ranged. It may have been good in its day, but its day was long past.

And I was thinking of that without considering the bad state of affairs at Midway. Avengers probably would have been cut apart too.

The point was, they knew that its day was long past. But what else did they have? Nothing, so they used what they had. At least until the Avenger came along.

neuromancer · Post by **neuromancer** » Mon May 03, 2004 11:33 pm

ORIGINAL: sven6345789
luckily, mdiehl hasn't found this thread yet[:D]

Oh lord![X(]

Don't even mention his name, he might be running searches for people taking it vain. [:-]

I think it was him I recreationally flamed in the WitP forum just because he was being a jack ass!

pasternakski · Post by **pasternakski** » Tue May 04, 2004 12:58 am

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
I think it was him I recreationally flamed in the WitP forum just because he was being a jack ass!

Keep it up, just keep it up.

barbarrossa · Post by **barbarrossa** » Tue May 04, 2004 11:32 am

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
I think it was him I recreationally flamed in the WitP forum just because he was being a jack ass!

Keep it up, just keep it up.

I'm pretty new to these here forum parts, but ah, where I come from....them's fightin' words.[:)]

Standing by.........[:D]

Damien Thorn · Post by **Damien Thorn** » Tue May 04, 2004 4:45 pm

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

ORIGINAL: sven6345789
luckily, mdiehl hasn't found this thread yet[:D]

Oh lord![X(]

Don't even mention his name, he might be running searches for people taking it vain. [:-]

I think it was him I recreationally flamed in the WitP forum just because he was being a jack ass!

I think he searches for my name and posts after anything I post. He always likes calling people "axis fanboys" andhe usually puts the 'boy' part in bold. I hope this post doesn't draw him here. [:(]

neuromancer · Post by **neuromancer** » Tue May 04, 2004 5:18 pm

Yep, that sounds like him.

Generally I found this to be such a well behaved forum, and he was just being such a major jerk to everyone he was 'talking to' that I decided to let him have it with both barrels, just for fun (I didn't give a flying leap about the arguement at hand).

Some people thought I was being rather childish for spending so much effort on recreational flaming, and I agree actually. But I really felt that for all the disrespect he was dishing, it was time someone dissed him in return.

Generally I try to avoid flame wars these days, they are pointless. So after a couple posts, I then never returned to the thread, the only point in the exercise was to diss him, and make him mad enough to chew nails, just to be irritating.

Never did find out if I was successful.

Like I said, on a generally well behaved forum like this, people who disrespect the other members deserve everything they get.

The true irony was, Mr. Frag had told him early on that the condition he was screaming bloody murder over, and throwing insults about, and generally being a jerk over, was an extreme rarity, and not something to be so concerned over. Only after Mr. Frag repeated himself a couple times did our 'friend' there suddenly declare 'Oh, well all right then'.

madflava13 · Post by **madflava13** » Tue May 04, 2004 5:29 pm

Neuromancer,
Was that the infamous "Critical Hit - Instant Death" thread?
I think I took a beating from him on that one as well.
Good times, good times...

barbarrossa · Post by **barbarrossa** » Tue May 04, 2004 5:35 pm

All in good fun.

I'm actually awaiting the day that Mike Scholl and I get into a spirited Russo-German "discussion".

So far he's not taken the bait[;)] Perhaps it's my moniker that gives him pause.[:)]

All in good fun.

neuromancer · Post by **neuromancer** » Tue May 04, 2004 7:34 pm

ORIGINAL: madflava13

Neuromancer,
Was that the infamous "Critical Hit - Instant Death" thread?
I think I took a beating from him on that one as well.
Good times, good times...

Nope, I think it was called "Santa came early". He was all bent out of shape because torps from planes could hit any ship in the yards at Pearl instead of just the 4 battleships that were historically vulnerable. In that particular case, Mr. Frag reported huge damage to the US ships in port, and this fellow was so pissed off.

He seems to think that if the IJN has a chance in the game it will somehow change history and the US will actually lose the war. Or something.

At any rate, he was talking about some stupid coding change just to prevent this tiny little thing at the very beginning of the game. Which Mr. Frag pointed out was the best he had seen in about a hundred game starts, with a rather dismal performance (not even Arizona going down) being the typical result. But as I said, Mr. Frag had to post the same general thing twice before the fellow clued in.

In the mean time he was being such a complete shmuck to anyone that didn't completely argee with him, that even though I didn't care about the argument, I wanted to get in a couple volleys before I moved on.

Never did understand why the thread was never locked.

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