Hearts of Iron 2

[Hanal]

I can see by downloading 8 and 8.1 that I need both, as 8 is 26 MB while 8.1 is only 2 MB......I'll give HOI one more shot and see how it goes...thanks for the info

[Hortlund]

Hrm, sorry about that, I got 0.8 and 0.81 mixed up.

[neuromancer]

Hmm, ignore the site for a few days, and one random thread becomes rather busy.

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
To those people thrashing HoI, and those that are pre-thrashing HoI2 I would like to say this. You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to HoI2, and you obviously have not tried HoI 1.06.

Actually, I do, and I have.

Paradox has followed the same pattern of premature release of their software with EE, EE2, and HoI (possibly other products too).. All had extremely buggy and even incomplete (non-functional features) initial releases. In the case of HoI, it did take until 1.06 to deal with the last of the really obnoxious bugs, fully 16 to 17 months after initial release.

There is an old saying, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".

I didn't know about EE and EE2 before I bought HoI, so I consider that the first time they fooled me. But now that I know about their release policies (release really early, patch later), I know better. So I will wait until HoI2 has been out a while and has several patches under its belt before I look into it. Like I said, probably a year.

As for HoI 1.6, I've been playing it lately and have been enjoying it - finally. But as I said, it took them 16 or 17 months to get a reasonably solid game out. And it STILL will CtD periodically (although it is a lot less frequent than it used to be - but I still save 'monthly' to minimize impact when it happens).

Its not perfect by any means, but it is a fun little game (now). The 'AI' has even been giving me a reasonable challenge (although, if it ever concentrated its invasions, I would have been in trouble).

I even enjoyed plain HoI 1.6 (much to my surprise), although I find I enjoy the CORE mod (v0.81) more.

Hmm, strangely I don't think CORE v0.81 has done a CtD on me, while plain HoI 1.6 did a few times. How could the mod be more stable than the basic game?

Probably just luck that it hasn't splatted on me yet.

- - - -

Incidentally, I know the patch is actually 1.06, but I would not consider their patches '1%' adjustment patches, but 10%. So patch 1.06 is probably a 60% alteration (at least for the end user) and thus should be numbered 1.6.

But that is just me. I have no idea how much internal code they changed to acheive this, which is how programmers usually assign their version numbers (small code change, +.01, big code change +.1, fundamental code change +1.0).

[ladner]

I have bought three Paradox games, Europa Universalis II (EU2), Hearts of Iron (HOI), and Victoria. My experience and reaction to HOI was negative, and patches and communtiy mods cannot fix what for myself was a broken experience. EU2 and Victoria I both enjoyed, of all of Paradox's games Victoria is the best in my opinion.

I think the members of this forum, who expressed a wait and see approach, have given the best advice with respect to making a purchase of this game when it comes out. I would not make a rush or impulse buy on a Paradox product upon the first release. I am glad that there are several grand strategic scale games under development. My real hope though, is that Joel and company get there second wind after War In the Pacific and create a true grand strategic game covering both theaters using the UV/WiTP engine.

[DerekP]

ORIGINAL: ladner

I have bought three Paradox games, Europa Universalis II (EU2), Hearts of Iron (HOI), and Victoria. My experience and reaction to HOI was negative, and patches and communtiy mods cannot fix what for myself was a broken experience. EU2 and Victoria I both enjoyed, of all of Paradox's games Victoria is the best in my opinion.

I think the members of this forum, who expressed a wait and see approach, have given the best advice with respect to making a purchase of this game when it comes out. I would not make a rush or impulse buy on a Paradox product upon the first release. I am glad that there are several grand strategic scale games under development. My real hope though, is that Joel and company get there second wind after War In the Pacific and create a true grand strategic game covering both theaters using the UV/WiTP engine.

I find it odd that HoI2 gets such a high prominence in a WaW forum[:D]

The two games look like being as different as Third Reich and Europa series (the board game). One is stylised, the other is historical. Both were great games

I really hope that they don't try to expand the UV/WitP engine to a grand strategic game - it would be unplayable. Rather a series of theatre based games would be great IMHO (make more money for matrix too[;)])

[neuromancer]

ORIGINAL: DerekP
I find it odd that HoI2 gets such a high prominence in a WaW forum[:D]

Not a lot of Strategic Level WW2 games currently out there.

- Axis and Allies (for the computer), was IMnsHO particularly lame. Horrible, horrible AI, on top of too simplistic a system.
- Strategic Command was pretty lame too. I'm not sure SC2 will be a significant improvment. Strangely simplistic in ways that made no sense to me (one unit per 'hex').
- HoI had a lot of potential, but never lived up to all of it. I at least think it is in the same ballpark now, but it took a year and a half to get there.

And of course we have GG WaW. Related topic. Not too surprising that the other reasonably 'hot' commodity (HoI) gets some mileage.

The two games look like being as different as Third Reich and Europa series (the board game). One is stylised, the other is historical.

Agreed. Two completely different ways of going with the same subject matter.

My analogy would be Totalier Krieg or Europe Engulfed vs. World in Flames or European Theatre of Operations.

I really hope that they don't try to expand the UV/WitP engine to a grand strategic game - it would be unplayable. Rather a series of theatre based games would be great IMHO (make more money for matrix too[;)])

EEP! [X(]

Agreed. I'm leary of even WitP being more than I want to deal with! I'm worried turns will take too long, and be more like work than entertainment.

But I'll still get the game to find out first hand.


In HoI, I find England and Japan to be almost too much because they have so many units and are so dispersed all over the place.

[ladner]

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

In HoI, I find England and Japan to be almost too much because they have so many units and are so dispersed all over the place.

The problem with HOI, realtime and clunky interface...the Paradox sliders were quite dreadful when the game was released.

As for a global WWII game based on the UV/WitP engine, imagine this possibility for PBEM you could split the various regions/Theater commands amongst your friends or other members of a wargamming club/web community. It would be a game within a game, probably the closest you could come to simulating the squabbling amongst Patton and Montgomery for resources.

This is not meant to be a knock on WaW, WaW in my opinion it is a beer-and-pretzels style wargame, perhaps the grognard mode alluded to by Joel will bring it up to the level of Advanced Third Reich in terms of complexity. HOI attempted to be a serious wargame, it failed in this respect in my opinion. What I personally would like to see is an attempt at making a serious simulation of the entire war, as it stands now WitP is probably as close as I will get to such a game.

[Hanal]

I still have hope that Matrix will be able to tame the World in Flames beast....if they can pull it off, and have a decent AI besides just PBEM, then we may just have the game we are looking for!

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: ladner
The problem with HOI, realtime and clunky interface...the Paradox sliders were quite dreadful when the game was released.

HOI was continous time, not realtime. Each turn-type has it's advantages and disadvantages but there is nothing inherently flawed with continous time.

[paullus99]

I disagree with the Beer & Pretzels anology.....having tested the game for a few weeks now, I am still getting a handle on logistics (very, very important), production, and research portions of the build. Although the game does make some simplifications - there is a lot there for a grognard to sink their teeth into.

I think you will all be surprised!

[pzgndr]

there is a lot there for a grognard to sink their teeth into.

Good to hear. It will be great to have a decent turn-based game instead of realtime HOI. Looking forward to it. [8D]

[DoomedMantis]

So am I. I did enjoy HOI, but only to a certian extent, and usually to a certain level as well. Once I controlled Europe and defeated the USSR as Germany the game became fairly cumbersome to keep control of in continuous time. I much prefer the turn based myself.

[neuromancer]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I disagree with the Beer & Pretzels anology.....having tested the game for a few weeks now, I am still getting a handle on logistics (very, very important), production, and research portions of the build. Although the game does make some simplifications - there is a lot there for a grognard to sink their teeth into.

I think you will all be surprised!

That's good to hear! [8D]

I had made the same conclussion of 'Beer and Pretzels' from what Joel had said earlier. That's fine, but it rarely holds my attention for too long (still would have got it though).

Although, heh, it might have ended up like Starships Unlimited. I bought the game, started reading the manual, and decided I didn't like the sound of it after all, and never installed it! Not Matrix's fault, just ended up not sounding like a game that caught my interest.
I really should install it some time and at least give it a try...

More likely it would be like Stategic Command. I'd get it, a friend and I would try a PBEM game, and then - if it turned out as simplistic as SC - shelve it after one game.


But it sounds like there may be a bit more depth there than it initially sounds, so it may have some staying power after all.

[paullus99]

I think people will be surprised. Looking at the map, it does look like it will play a lot like A&A - but adding in the logistics, the production, the research, etc....you will spend an hour or more just on the production side of things. Its very strategic, so don't expect to micromanage divisions or individual ships - you will be FDR or Hitler, making the grand strategic choices that will lead to either victory or defeat.

You will see a lot of detail in the AARs, once we get around to PBEM.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Saying the game will play like A&A based on looking at the map, is as valid as saying it would play like Advanced Third Reich if it had hexes.

Not valid.

It has regions not hexes. That says nothing at all.

Saying it is being done with Gary, now that says something.

[2Stepper]

Sorry guys... you can FLAME HOI 1 and the eventual HOI 2 all ya like. I've been a loyal player of the game since it's inception. Yes it's had bugs, but let's be honest folks, what game hasn't? You take your chances when you buy a game right out of the pipeline, and HOI 1 is still selling for 39.95 US on most shelves. Not too shabby... About the only company that puts out reasonably good gaming software oddly enough is Microsoft.

I know it's a "dirty" word in some peoples minds, but Gates boys have it figured out... As far as HOI goes? It's improved immensely and I honestly think they've learned a lot from eariler miscues... Time will tell. Just as it will for the sake of World at War.

I agree totally with what people have said about the clout of Gary Grigsby having a hand in it's development... [&o]

He's a phenom when it comes to software development... I for one though will wait until it's release to see how the review band wagon rolls along... if it looks good? Rock on... I'll get it... It'd make a nice companion to HOI 2. [;)] If not? Well... [8D]

[tiredoftryingnames]

No one can disagree that it has improved. But having some bugs at release and being technically a beta is two different things.

[neuromancer]

ORIGINAL: 2Stepper
Yes it's had bugs, but let's be honest folks, what game hasn't?

Max Payne 2.

Played it through twice (and am about half way through on the hardest level), absolutely zero problems. And zero need to patch it, even for balance or whatever tweaking. To my knowledge there was one patch released, and it was to make something work better with some oddball video card (i.e. not current NVIDIA or ATI).

Didn't bother with it as it wasn't relevant.

MP2 set a pretty high bar.


But as has been stated, I accept having some bugs. I'm a programmer for a living, I know how complex the job is. But when the level of bugs are so bad as to make you think you are beta testing for the company, that is a whole different ball game.

HoI was almost unplayable upon release. Massivly unstable, many functions that didn't work right, some that didn't work - period.

My favourite bug was all the tech upgrades you researched that improved abilities of research, industry, or the abilities of your units, were 'forgotten' after a recovery of a save game.

So the 10% increase to your industrial capacity that you worked so hard to get, gone next time you load the game. For me that was a fatal bug.
And something that was inexcusable in the release, it was so obvious that it should never have made it past any sort of QA program.

The frequent CtDs were B.S. too. Nothing else I ran on my machine was that bad (not even close), so it sure wasn't my PC at fault.


The game was released probably a year before it should have been. Plain and simple. I am not going to make that mistake again (at least not with Paradox).

[2Stepper]

Again, folks are entitled to their opinions... I just don't happen to agree with them.

I did mention that Microsoft is one company that consistently produces solid software rarely (if ever) requiring patches... HOI WAS nearly unplayable out of the box and like all games that come out like that, they leave a horrid taste in someones mouth... Something I dearly hope doesn't happen with this game... Thankfully its improved immensely. With luck and Matrix's good track record, this game shouldn't have those problems.

As I said before... I look forward to this game as well as HOI 2. Should both prove enjoyable for when I want a hardcore micromanagement wargame (HOI 2) and when I want to take it easy with something simpler but still provides the grand strategy I want.

Time will tell indeed. For now I watch and wait patiently. [8D]

[ChuckK]

A question for ye ole hard core HOI types. What's the best mod and settings to fight the Pacific War? I haven't looked at the game in a year but the talk of 1.06 and C.O.R.E. has given me an itch to give the game another try.

A year ago the naval aspect of the game were one of its weakest points, especially naval air modelling. Has this changed?

Thanks!