The greatest naval commander of the 20th century

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: Tophat

Fletcher? Are you serious,really serious? Yes indeed,he covered himself with Glory in covering the Guadacanal landings now didn't he? I'm not saying he was the worst USN Flag officer but the best? I think not............

Absolutely serious. Fletcher has been badmouthed far too long. He was the one who won Midway with his overall direction, not Spruance. Check H.P. Willmott's book "Barrier and the Javelin". The new book by John Lundstrom that will come out next year will be an eye-opener.

[Tomo]

Unfortunately, Tanaka is not evaluated so much in Japan. Maybe Tamon Yamaguchi(died in Midway) is best for Japanese WW2 fans. Kondo is also a excellent but he is not evaluated among allied WW2 fans.

[adsoul]

Tomo, could you please explain in depth why Tanaka is not rewarded as a great commander? At the best of my knoledge, I was removed from commanding at sea due to his criticism to the Japanese strategy in Solomons. According to H.P. Willmott (The Barrier and the Javelin) Yamaguchi proposed to scuttle CVs of the 2nd Carrier Division after PH because they lacked range to make the trip back to Japan and physicaly assulted Nagumo. Do you know anything about this accident?

[Drex]

Andrew Cunningham was a great commander who served in both world wars with distinction. He headed the fleet in the med in WWII and then served as First Sea Lord under Churchill.

[Andy Mac]

Cunningham probably gets my vote although Karl Donitz has to be considered as a strategist

All of the other names mentioned would certainly make my top 20 and I would probably also add Noble and Horton to the list given the job they did in the Battle of the Atlantic.

Andy

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Tomo

Unfortunately, Tanaka is not evaluated so much in Japan. Maybe Tamon Yamaguchi(died in Midway) is best for Japanese WW2 fans. Kondo is also a excellent but he is not evaluated among allied WW2 fans.

Why do you leave Admiral Togo out of the equasion? 1904 IS part of the 20th Century,
and as the commander and guiding spirit of the Japanese in most of the major naval
engagements of that war Togo proved himself resourceful, resiliant, ruthless, and a
solid tactician and strategest. He fought two major sea battles, maintained a difficult
blockade, escorted the Japanese Army's move into Manchuria and maintained their
supply lines. On the basis of success in all the various levels and types of naval combat
that were available at the time, he should certianly be ranked among the top 3.

[Pascal_slith]

And then there were those that created the modern navies that would fight or were relieved for being truthful.

Admiral Moffett and Admiral Reeves for the US. Admiral Richardson for 'telling it like it is' in the face of FDR.

Yamamoto for helping the development of IJN Naval Aviation.



How about a list of some of the worst?

[Mike Scholl]

Another thought might be Karl Doenitz of the U-Boat arm. Without anything like the
numbers or support he asked for and needed, he still managed to Keep the "Battle of
the Atlantic" very high on the Allied "worry list" for 3 and 1/2 years and sink more
tonnage of enemy shipping that any other admiral's forces can claim. He poineered
new tactics and weapons (the wolfpack and the supply submarine) and commanded
the full loyalty and respect of his men.

[adsoul]

I wonder no mention of Nimitz... Talking abvout the worst ones... what about Angelo Iachino of Matapan fame?

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Tomo

Unfortunately, Tanaka is not evaluated so much in Japan. Maybe Tamon Yamaguchi(died in Midway) is best for Japanese WW2 fans. Kondo is also a excellent but he is not evaluated among allied WW2 fans.

Why do you leave Admiral Togo out of the equasion? 1904 IS part of the 20th Century,
and as the commander and guiding spirit of the Japanese in most of the major naval
engagements of that war Togo proved himself resourceful, resiliant, ruthless, and a
solid tactician and strategest. He fought two major sea battles, maintained a difficult
blockade, escorted the Japanese Army's move into Manchuria and maintained their
supply lines. On the basis of success in all the various levels and types of naval combat
that were available at the time, he should certianly be ranked among the top 3.

Quality of the opposition comes to mind.

[Mike Scholl]

Well, "ABC" Cunningham spent most of his time beating up on the Italians, and he's still recieved
a lot of mention. Togo had trained his sailors to a sharp edge, while the Russians seem to have
relied on valor and numbers. Togo proved to have made the right choices, and you would penalize
him for it. That's like saying Robert E. Lee wasn't any good because Burnside, McClellan, Pope, and
Hooker stunk.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Well, "ABC" Cunningham spent most of his time beating up on the Italians, and he's still recieved
a lot of mention. Togo had trained his sailors to a sharp edge, while the Russians seem to have
relied on valor and numbers. Togo proved to have made the right choices, and you would penalize
him for it. That's like saying Robert E. Lee wasn't any good because Burnside, McClellan, Pope, and
Hooker stunk.

I knew I'd pee you off. Seriously, Tsushima was like having the benefit of a date rape drug. No contest. Russians sailed around the world with coal piled on their decks and sufferred from extreme lack of morale (near mutinous). It's like saying Mitscher was the best...how could he lose? That's the problem with the victorious...they can't discern genius from the inevitable.

[Pascal_slith]

For Togo: fighting a fleet that was in poor shape, was poorly built, and had to go halfway around the world with serious misgivings on the part of the Brits and French, two of the only ones with supply bases along the way, was not that brilliant. Only keeping close to home was (internal lines of communications).

Nimitz was an excellent CinC who restored the moral of PacFleet and understood the strategy that had to be followed.

[BarkhornXX]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
It's like saying Mitscher was the best...how could he lose? That's the problem with the victorious...they can't discern genius from the inevitable.

Hi guys - second post - but I'll still jump right in. [;)]

This kind of sums up the whole problem w/ this thread. Too many apples to oranges comparisons. Mitscher and Togo were very good - and their opponents were either materially or morally outclassed - or both. It's not a fair comparison. How about Dewey at Manila Bay (the cruiser Olympia is preserved in Philadelphia harbor BTW). Was he a great commander or can we chalk his one sided slaughter fest up to the decrepit Spanish?

Naval battles rarely - if ever - consist of balanced forces/tactical situations (I can't think of one really...Coral Sea perhaps), rendering comparisons of this type little more than mental masturbation.

Barkhorn.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Pascal

For Togo: fighting a fleet that was in poor shape, was poorly built, and had to go halfway around the world with serious misgivings on the part of the Brits and French, two of the only ones with supply bases along the way, was not that brilliant. Only keeping close to home was (internal lines of communications).

Nimitz was an excellent CinC who restored the moral of PacFleet and understood the strategy that had to be followed.

I never said Nimitz wasn't a first class theatre commander. But you are ignoring the
fact that Togo had to first meet and beat the Russian Asiatic Fleet (based at Port Arthur)
at the Battle of the Yellow Sea. Togo was Theatre commander and Fleet commander.
Which meant he also had to put his life on the line in combat (both his Russian opposite
numbers were KIA as I recall). And you can only be judged by your performance
against the opponant that you are facing. Togo faced his, and annialated them---you
can't do better than that.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I knew I'd pee you off. Seriously, Tsushima was like having the benefit of a date rape drug. No contest. Russians sailed around the world with coal piled on their decks and sufferred from extreme lack of morale (near mutinous). It's like saying Mitscher was the best...how could he lose? That's the problem with the victorious...they can't discern genius from the inevitable.

"Piss me off"? Not hardly. You would have had to made a realistic and meaningful point
that proved I was in error to annoy me..., and then it would be with myself for not catching it sooner. For reasons I've already mentioned in another post, you don't appear
to really have much knowledge of the Russo-Japanese war. You seem to think it bagan
when it was actually over. Tsushima was "taps" blown over an already lowered casket.
All it did was give Togo a chance to "polish up" an already gleaming reputation for his
handling of the "real war". Was he the "best" of the 20th Century? I didn't make that
claim. I said that based on his accomplishments filling a number of roles that would
later be filled by multiple admirals, he should probably be in the top three.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I knew I'd pee you off. Seriously, Tsushima was like having the benefit of a date rape drug. No contest. Russians sailed around the world with coal piled on their decks and sufferred from extreme lack of morale (near mutinous). It's like saying Mitscher was the best...how could he lose? That's the problem with the victorious...they can't discern genius from the inevitable.

"Piss me off"? Not hardly. You would have had to made a realistic and meaningful point
that proved I was in error to annoy me..., and then it would be with myself for not catching it sooner. For reasons I've already mentioned in another post, you don't appear
to really have much knowledge of the Russo-Japanese war. You seem to think it bagan
when it was actually over. Tsushima was "taps" blown over an already lowered casket.
All it did was give Togo a chance to "polish up" an already gleaming reputation for his
handling of the "real war". Was he the "best" of the 20th Century? I didn't make that
claim. I said that based on his accomplishments filling a number of roles that would
later be filled by multiple admirals, he should probably be in the top three.

Not necessary to get hostile. Mikey.[:(] Togo (for warriors who cherish honour, the Japanese did utilize the "sucker punch" alot) took out the Russian Pacific fleet at Port Arthur while the Russians were being notified of Japan's declaration of hostilities. Underhanded as was Pearl Harbor. Only one Russian ship was not completely ill prepared for the night attack by the three Jap DD squadrons. This result was not exactly in doubt. Once again, the opposition was not quite up to snuff.

[Mike Scholl]

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. The so called "sucker punch"
only damaged the guardships at the mouth of the harbor (Port Arthur is virtually
landlocked---so getting at anything inside was almost impossible.) When Admiral
Makarov arrived after the war had broken out, he was still able to lead to sea a
force stronger than Togo's in everything but light craft. The result was the Battle
of the Yellow Sea, a long running affair which was actually decided as much by
Makarov's death as anything else. Without him, the Russians turned back, and Togo
was again able to achieve his objective of bottling them up until Nogi's Army could
lay siege to the Port. The "sucker punch" was more on the order of the Japanese
sinking the Aaron Ward outside Pearl Harbor and leaving the ships inside untouched.
Which meant he still had to deal with them until the Port could be brought under ef-
fective bombardment months later.

[Drex]

I think Togo should be considered but the quality of his opponent might the the reason he hasn't been mentioned.

[Tomo]

Tanaka got complain from IJN after Lunga battle. He did a great job but didn't complete his mission(Tokyo express). So , he was switched to grand work till the end of war. It's crazy[:(]

Tamon is rewarded becuase his fighting spirits of Midway battle. Almost Japanese like such Bushido spirit very much.

Togo is very nice. You can enter inside of MIKASA if you come to Japan[:)].
http://www.kinenkan-mikasa.or.jp/

How about Halsey? Some Japanese WW2 historians are saying "We lost WW2 by Halsey & Enterprise". I'd like to know opinions from "the other side"(please use easy English for me[:D]).