OT: 5 million black berets

McGib · Post by **McGib** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 5:15 am

Personally, as a retired Canadian Sailor I was quite happy to sell my $5 green beret, which we wore prior the late 80's, to US service men for $30-40 USD just cause it was green.

Currently the CF still wear berets, navy blue(read black) for the navy, dark green for the army, and blue for the air force. We had a good deal of espirit de corps but is sure as hell didnt come from our head gear!

JWW · Post by **JWW** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 5:28 am

Two significant issues here. First, the issue of whether it was right to go to the beret is largely an internal Army issue. Soldiers may not like it, I don't like it, but if it happens, it happens. Once they're issued and soldier are ordered to wear them, then the issue is basically over.

However, the issue of buying some of the berets from the PRC is an issue the general public should be aware of. It is a separate issue. It involves spending federal funds in the PRC to buy Chinese-made berets while our airmen are being held hostage. That's a very bad move, although I know the decision was made months before the incident.

DELTA32 · Post by **DELTA32** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 6:10 am

I think it's ridiculous to even allow ANYTHING INTO THIS COUNTRY MADE IN COMMUNIST CHINA !
As you read this I wonder how many of you go your merry way to WAL-MART and buy there ? They are the biggest retailer in the country of crap produced in Communist China. How many of you have voted to retain politicians who support Communist China with Free Trade bills ?

Get real.......quit buying crap made there...and put Americans back into manufacturing !

Delta 3-2

DELTA32 · Post by **DELTA32** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 6:14 am

Originally posted by murx:
I think it would be better if the barrets were made in US ... better for morale anyway.

I do too. Only problem is that American politicians have worked hard to close down textile mills, and clothing manufacturers here in the United States. Most apparel is now made in 3d World countries for consumption in my beloved country. In the meantime....Americans are being put out of work in increasing numbers. And government keeps employing more and more of them. We are becoming nothing more than what I found the Cold War over.....Socialist.

Delta 3-2

KG Erwin · Post by **KG Erwin** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 7:07 am

To Captain Brian, can't you also see that the dearth of top quality recruits AS WELL AS THE ARMY'S REFUSAL TO ADMIT IT'S F***ED UP RIGHT NOW will only hurt it's image? I understand that you CAN'T tell the truth, BUT there are guys like Dave Hackworth, a REAL American warrior, who have the balls to speak up and address the problems in today's Army. You don't have to respond, Captain, BUT the Army's got some real problems, and it's gonna take guys like you to speak up and demand a review of the Army's training programs and your troops' REAL readiness for action. Please excuse my being blunt, BUT the Army NEEDS someone to be just THAT, career be damned. In today's Army, balls are at a premium. The berets are just window dressing, but the ability of today's US Army to fight a real war is just a shadow of what President George I had to command.

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 7:42 am

We have become what we fought against in WWII. Of course the Army will have headgear coming from China (whose Defense Minister pubically states war with America is "inevitable") and Michael New, who refused to serve under UN command because it wasn't the Constitutional duty of our Armed Forces to fight and possibly die to support a "New World Order," gets a Dishonorable Discharge. Why would any quality/patriotic people enlist?

And as for AmmoSgt getting flamed for telling the truth about China and Nazi Germany using slave labor, the flamers are either totally ignorant or just don't want to allow facts into their lives. The way we bend over whenever the Chinese whistle makes me think we lost a war... one we weren't told about.

JTGEN · Post by **JTGEN** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 7:19 pm

This discussion got way away from where it started but lets keep it that way. As one of the AmmoSgt "flamers" I can not keep my self from laughing at some of these comments. If Chinese spyplane had landed in US, it would newer end back in China, and the crew would be held captive for a long time. Especially after a mid air collission like this, so keep it real. Also why do you think world is full of people that hate the US. It is not because they are mad fundamental islamics, but because of your own politics and what you have done. Like the Libyan terrorists and the demands for retribution. OK pay yourselves for those Iranians that you shot done on their pilgrimage to Mekka and let the Libyans bomb the whitehouse and make sure the presidents daughter is in there when it happens.

And what comes to the undeniable use of slave labour in Germany. Deal first with your own past before come to preach others about their actions.

And now back to the barets. It is true like somebody said that barets belong to special forces. In europe at least to my knowledge that is true. In Finland that is also like with the paratroopers, marines, battledivers and so on but the black baret is for tankmen. It is also a symbol of belonging to something more demanding unit than an average grunt and normal soldier in paratroopers has more prestige than officer in artillery for example. Our paratroopers are though something more like a combination of green barets and paratroopers.

CaptainBrian · Post by **CaptainBrian** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 7:32 pm

Originally posted by KG Erwin:
To Captain Brian, can't you also see that the dearth of top quality recruits AS WELL AS THE ARMY'S REFUSAL TO ADMIT IT'S F***ED UP RIGHT NOW will only hurt it's image? I understand that you CAN'T tell the truth, BUT there are guys like Dave Hackworth, a REAL American warrior, who have the balls to speak up and address the problems in today's Army. You don't have to respond, Captain, BUT the Army's got some real problems, and it's gonna take guys like you to speak up and demand a review of the Army's training programs and your troops' REAL readiness for action. Please excuse my being blunt, BUT the Army NEEDS someone to be just THAT, career be damned. In today's Army, balls are at a premium. The berets are just window dressing, but the ability of today's US Army to fight a real war is just a shadow of what President George I had to command.

I agree with you 100%, but I am not a member of the U. S. Army, I am a Marine. I am well aware of much of what is going on and I hope my service can continue to avoid many of these pitfalls.

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 8:03 pm

"Dave Hackworth, a REAL American warrior, who have the balls to speak up and address the problems in today's Army. "

Surprising how people forget that Hackworth loudly and very publicly lambasted the Army for its equipment buys in the late 80s: M1, M2/3, HMMV among others. The very weapons that won a victory in the Gulf (well maybe he had a point about M2/3

); then went on to publicly humiliate a Navy admiral by declaring he did not deserve his Vietnam decorations. Turns out he WAS entitled to wear them.
Anyway, Army officers/NCOs ARE speaking up, read any copy of the Army Times. A couple years back, a Major who just came out of Staff College was telling us that the army commissioned a survey of these guys/women to see why they and their troops were dissatisifed. The Army CoS got an earful. Whether he acts on it is something O3-O5s can't really decide; but he knows.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 11:37 pm

Actuallly the Black beret was standard wear by female troops wearing class A uniforms in the late 70's .early 80's ..maybe the U S Army Service Women made it stand for someting ..and now all the guys want one ???

murx · Post by **murx** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 12:15 am

Berrets only for special forces ? Uh, not in Germany - all use it (or nearly all) after they are no longer declared mere recruits.
Sure berrets are not te best to use in winter - but IF you are out in winter its due to one of two reaons. 1. training - and if you getting cold its a bad training

2. real mission - you better wear your helmet.

For the German WWI & WWII helmet. It was introduced late in the WWI as the 'Pickelhaube' was very bad. The design and protection of the 'new' helmet was very efficient and thus most nations adopted the design more or less.

For slave labour - the registry machines that calculated most of these labourers as also a large amount of the bureaucratic part of the holocaust, were made by IBM and only after '39 (at that time the slave labour/holocaust had started already) US stopped to sell to Germany. And the Swiss had bought tons of gold that once belonged to the massacred humans without questioning were al this German gold came from ... but anyways they sure wouldn't have cared.

Even nowadays one can say the US Justice Department runs 'slave' labour camps for 'criminals' ... not even questioning the death sentence in some states ...

It's very easily done to tell others how bad they treat humans or even break human rights - but it's harder to see it in ones very own country - harder even to do anything about it ...

murx

john g · Post by **john g** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 12:47 am

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Actuallly the Black beret was standard wear by female troops wearing class A uniforms in the late 70's .early 80's ..maybe the U S Army Service Women made it stand for someting ..and now all the guys want one ???

God help the soldiers if they are going to be wearing that same beret!

I was in the Corps of Cadets at Texas A&M back in the late 70's. The female cadets wore berets that looked like the top of a button mushroom. All round and stiff, quite ugly.

Later they lost the berets and went to the same hats as the male cadets, just about the same time that they gained the priviledge of wearing riding boots their senior year, as the male cadets had for many years.
thanks, John.

KG Erwin · Post by **KG Erwin** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 2:59 am

Oops! My humble apologies to you, Captain Brian. I have the utmost respect for the Marines, and yes, I DO have a tendency to sometimes go into Dennis Miller rant mode, but please bear with me. The Army's got a lot of problems, but, these days, it IS an unfortunate fact that anyone on the inside who dares to expose the issues to the zero-defect mindset of the military either gets ignored or has their career ladder shot out from under them. As far as Dave Hackworth is concerned, I am an unabashed fan of his, BUT I also know that his opinions are NOT 100% bullet-proof. However, I still think that "About Face" is the best military memoir ever written by an American, and I still think a movie oughta be made about this man's distinguished military career.

DELTA32 · Post by **DELTA32** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 3:47 am

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Actuallly the Black beret was standard wear by female troops wearing class A uniforms in the late 70's .early 80's ..maybe the U S Army Service Women made it stand for someting ..and now all the guys want one ???

Why do you always seem to make assine comments ? Always trying to stir things up or trying to be funny !
That thing you call a "Beret" for WACS in the time frame you describe was far from a beret in the traditional sense. In fact....it barely resembled a beret and was not worn like the beret many people envision. However, for "your" nformation.....Border Cavalry Squadrons (11th ACR and 2nd ACR) deployed along the East German and Czechoslovakian borders in the 70's and 80's were authorized and required to wear black berets. We wore them, and we were proud of our mission. We were the speed bumps that would stop a Warsaw Pact invasion into the FRG.

Delta 3-2

DELTA32 · Post by **DELTA32** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 3:53 am

Never forget that the French Army's standard headgear are berets ! They weer them well but, couldn't fight their way out of a paperbag. Hated working with the bastards. Oh, and the Legion ? They're foreigners and have always been exceptional, elite soldiers. But French Regulars....they suck and so do their berets !

Delta 3-2

DELTA32 · Post by **DELTA32** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 3:57 am

Originally posted by Grumble:
Matt,My perspective is from the cash viewpoint: the CoS's whine and blow snot about not enough money ("we're gutting ourselves") yet we can afford: new hats for the army and $650,000 for a new AF symbol. (Don't even get me started on boondoggles like "Tops in Blue")

You forgot to mention the new pattern cammies for the Marines....isn't that an expensive venture ? BDU's arent' good enough for 'em !

Delta 3-2

DELTA32 · Post by **DELTA32** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 4:24 am

Surprising how people forget that Hackworth loudly and very publicly lambasted the Army for its equipment buys in the late 80s: M1, M2/3, HMMV among others.Anyway, Army officers/NCOs ARE speaking up, read any copy of the Army Times. A couple years back, a Major who just came out of Staff College was telling us that the army commissioned a survey of these guys/women to see why they and their troops were dissatisifed. The Army CoS got an earful. Whether he acts on it is something O3-O5s can't really decide; but he knows.[/B]

For the record....I loved my TOW Hummers. Best thing the Army ever did was to replace M151A2s with HMMWVs ! The taxpayer got their money's worth with the HMMWV series of vehicles.

Anyway....the entire state of the military is in a crisis. I remember working only a few short years ago with troops from 24 ID, and a Platoon Sergeant told me with great dismay: "My troops have little motivation, I'm short on soldiers, and the ones I have tell me: "Come on Sarge, I'm only in it for the college money." !

For those of you who want a much better read on the state of affairs from the viewpoint of an unnamed LTC at the Pentagon....read his article at: www.snipersparadise.com/articles/aska.htm

It's sad, but true.

Delta 3-2

USMCGrunt · Post by **USMCGrunt** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 5:44 am

Originally posted by DELTA 3-2:
You forgot to mention the new pattern cammies for the Marines....isn't that an expensive venture ? BDU's arent' good enough for 'em !

Delta 3-2

Guess the Marines decided they'd had enough of taking hand-me-downs and wanted an actual decent combat uniform for once Delta. I've seen pictures of the proposed new cammies, and they're certainly not a fashion statement. The big selling point of them is the design of the uniform itself. (pockets, removable sleeves, reinforced joint areas etc.) The cammies I was issued (89-94) were crap. Spend anytime in the field with them, and they were tattered.

Now, as to your comment about cost to the tax payer. The Marine Corps only gives a clothing allowance once a year. In my time it was only $158. That wasn't near enough to replace cammies, much less the socks, skivvies, t-shirts, and other uniforms that needed replacing yearly. The rest of it came out of our own pockets. So I don't see how the taxpayer's footing much of the bill on this one. Not to mention that Marines have the lowest standard of living of any service. Hmmmm.... I guess it would just be too much to ask to let them have a decent, durable, utility uniform.

CaptainBrian · Post by **CaptainBrian** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 5:51 am

Originally posted by USMCGrunt:
Guess the Marines decided they'd had enough of taking hand-me-downs and wanted an actual decent combat uniform for once Delta. I've seen pictures of the proposed new cammies, and they're certainly not a fashion statement. The big selling point of them is the design of the uniform itself. (pockets, removable sleeves, reinforced joint areas etc.) The cammies I was issued (89-94) were crap. Spend anytime in the field with them, and they were tattered.

Now, as to your comment about cost to the tax payer. The Marine Corps only gives a clothing allowance once a year. In my time it was only $158. That wasn't near enough to replace cammies, much less the socks, skivvies, t-shirts, and other uniforms that needed replacing yearly. The rest of it came out of our own pockets. So I don't see how the taxpayer's footing much of the bill on this one. Not to mention that Marines have the lowest standard of living of any service. Hmmmm.... I guess it would just be too much to ask to let them a decent, durable, utility uniform.

The way I understand it is there will be a phase in period...i.e. NLT XXXX date you have to have them, much like the old poplin cammies were phased out in the mid 80's.

Although the current utility uniform is not cheap ($45 a set), the new one is supposed to cost the same. As with everything else new, we'll see what really happens.

Recruits are supposed to start receiving it this fall. By the time the uniform is mandatory, the majority of Marines having to pay out of pocket are ones in the career force. Relatively few one term Marines will take it in the ass on this one (hopefully).

KG Erwin · Post by **KG Erwin** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 7:39 am

I'm curious. Where can I find pictures of the new Marine cammies? I went to the official USMC web site, BUT, I think I'd be a little old for a recruit. Nice flash intro, though. They can try recruiting my daughter in about 14 years.