anyone else want to see a WWI game?

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Ed Cogburn
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Hi, Bonzo.


... there were hundreds of small scale probes & patrols to gather intelligence, cut wire, knock out strong points. There are expamples of this in Rommel's "ATTACKS".
It sounds like you're just asking for tactical WW1 scenarios for SPWaW; this thread has always been about a grand strategic WW1 game.


I don't know why anyone would want to refight Verdun, Passchendael or the like on the computer. They were gross failures of leadership at best.

Nobody is suggesting we want to fight Verdun again, the tedium of the fighting on the Western front is already a given. Our point is this kind of fighting didn't happen everywhere, so the game, with the addition of strategy, production and diplomacy decisions to be made, won't be that dull. In fact, most games will play differently since we all have the hindsight of knowing the pointlessness of human wave attacks at Verdun and elsewere on the Western front.

But the small unit action - Ah.

So make scenarios for SPWaW. SPWaW might need some improvements to reflect the massive earthworks of the trenchs and tunnels and underground spaces, and perhaps new data for the late war tanks, but there is little reason to make a specific tactical level game of WW1, when you have a good, existing platform like SPWaW for this.


IIRC, Rommel took a well fortified mountaintop position in Italy, without artillery. Just manouever using the terrain, indirect machine gun fire, then a pincer-type assault on the entrenchments using hand grenades.

Rommel was part of the "Stosstrupen" divisions which used modern small unit tactics on a large scale. They were the German response to the Western Allies use of concentrated tanks and air planes. However, these hypothetical scenarios for Stosstrupen combat will look even more like WW2 scenarios in SPWaW, just without tanks.

Its hard enough to talk Matrix into a strategic level game of WW1, the idea of making a new tactical level game for WW1 won't get very far, especially considering how easy it probably is to adapt SPWaW for this purpose.
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Post by Bonzo »

My read of the thread is a discussion of a WWI game, not limited to grand strategic. There is discussion in this thread about a set of OOB files for SPWaW for WWI, so I do not feel my comments are miss places or inappropriate. The goal of my post is to to present more options so that we are more likely to see some form of WWI game developed, not to undercut the desirability of a grand strategic game.

As for Rommel, at the time of the attack i mentioned, he was in the Wirtberg (sp?) mountain battalion (IIRC), fighting in the balkans and Italy. Earlier in the war, he was on the western front with another unit, before the stalemate set in and movement became impossible.

I would be happy with any good WWI game.

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Post by Gary Norman »

A campaign game, in the North Sea, using the the Grand and High Seas dreadnoughts, as they were built, starting in 1914 to 1918?

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Post by VictorH »

I would like to see a WWI game developed by Matrix. I played a number of WWI board games by S&T many years ago. There was a quad series that included the battle of Capretto. Also, there were 3 magzine games I recall, one on Tannenberg, the other on the Kaiser Battles(last German Offensive in the West using Strosstruppen tactics), then there was a game on the entire war. Finally there was a agme on the British Tank attack at Cambrai. Count on me for a purchase.
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Post by laurent Favre »

WW1 wargame would be nice, either on strategic level or on operational. Even if there are some great differences with WW2, most the game engine could be the same. last I 'm sure a WW1 game would sell much better than a new iteration of the Bulge or another tactical wargame.
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Post by Frantic »

I for one would love 2 buy a Grand Strategy game of WW1 - the what-ifs of that war are many!

I'm not sure about the operational - the tactics early on was largly napoleonic, so u could get the same gamingexperience from playing Tallonsofts nap.war. series (forgot the name - sorry)

PLEASE MAKE A GRAND STRATEGY GAME!!!!

that my 2 cents
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Post by troopie »

I would like to see one on the scale of SP3. Every big battle is made up of hundreds or thousands of little battles. And for me, the little battles have the interest. And in between the 'going over the top' events there was a constant round of patrols, probes, ambushes and fights. And this is just the West front. In the East, Middle East and African fronts, things were much more mobile.
Also, I wager, with better support and generals better than Hamilton, Stopford, and Hunter-Weston the allies could crack the Dardanelles. (Actually it's hard to be worse than these three.)

troopie

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Post by HowieB »

A grand strategic WW1 game would be EXTREMELY interesting. I mean what happened to all the grand strategic games? I think the last one out was Clash Of Steel by SSI in 94(?). Nowadays, they are all extinct! What's up with that? I loved the scale and being in charge of the whole business.

If anyone wants some hard evidence that a grand strategic game of WW1 can both be good and sell well, have a look at "Paths Of Glory", a boardgame by GMT Games released last year. It is by far the most discussed boardgame at the consimworld forums (http://talk.consimworld.com) right now (ca 6000 posts) and it's out of stock at most (if not all) retailers (a reprint is scheduled for October).

This is an excellent and obviously very successful boardgame and all I wish is that something similar existed for my PC!

These figures also makes me wonder why WW1 is considered a niche in the wargaming community?? Looking at the number of consimworld forum posts, this game is seeing 12 times more posts than Advanced Third Reich (ca 500 posts)! Even another WW1 game - "Drive On Paris" by The Gamers is having a good amount of discussion with about 500 posts.


Also, the company deciding to make a WW1 game now in 2000 won't have much of a competition to worry about either:

Computergamers currently have a choice between:
*The very old "History Line 1914-1918" by Bluebyte released in 91(?).
*A couple of WW1 scenarios in Talonsoft's TOAW:COW.
*A WW1 mod for Close Combat.

That's the entire list (that I know of)!

Maybe the computer wargaming community is a completely different breed than the board- wargamers, but my impression is that we share a lot of ground. I may be wrong though?

However, I would be the first one to buy a WW1 game and I'm pretty sure there are hordes of other wargamers (board and/or computer) who wouldn't hesitate to hand over their money if a quality WW1 computergame appeared.

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Post by bpolarsk »

Very pertinent, indeed, and thanks for the link !

[This message has been edited by bpolarsk (edited September 14, 2000).]
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Post by mogami »

I would love a WWI game, and one on the Japan-Russian War 0f 1904 (A really interesting war) And the Punic Wars, the Pelopenniosn (sic) War, The Mexican-American War no kidding there are too many good wars being ignored. A game or two on any of these would find it's way into my PC.

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Post by Grumble »

I recall that in periodic surveys of the eras most gamers were interested in, WW1 was in the top four or so. As a gamer/historian and European battlefield tourguide, yep I definitely fork over some Dollars to acquire a sophisicated grand strategic WW1 game. I believe if you want grand tactical or tactical WW1 you could maybe acquire a copy of SSI's Tanks! or adapt SPWAW: other posters have suggested some ways to do this.
Having said that, one of the things that has killed commercial wargaming is the apparent exclusivity, okay "snottiness" of the hobby. For a company to survive it must appeal to the "casual" wargames market out there. This market is usually folks who've come over from action games; unlikely they would have an interest in WW1. The bro's at Matrix could tell us how many copies would have to be sold to turn a profit; I'm afraid it would take more than all of us to make it worthwhile.
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Post by sapperland »

I am glad that this thread is getting attention. I think if all the good old board gamers of old (others like me Image which would play a WWI game and add to that the new blood that would like to try their hand at the first great war and I bet you would have enough buyers to make the game a winner. I feel that the 4X type games have been done to death covering future space empires or historical empires. I think that the gamers that like 4X games as well as the gonards would be the people to put out the cash for a grand strategic WWI game. The players that find fun in playing action games would not be big buyers of WWI or any other pure war game of any era. The best edge that a WWI game would have in the market is no competition for buyers that might show an interest.

[This message has been edited by sapperland (edited September 15, 2000).]
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Post by waynef »

WW1...

Strategic - employ the Wars of Napolean (Matrix Games)engine to this time period. Strategy on many levels (diplomacy etc).

Tactical - Age of Rifles - Get Norm Kroger to work with Matrix on creating AoR2! AoR2 could cover 1850-1920. Most of the data base is already present from AoR.

Just some thoughts Image
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Post by troopie »

Originally posted by waynef:
WW1...

Strategic - employ the Wars of Napolean (Matrix Games)engine to this time period. Strategy on many levels (diplomacy etc).

Tactical - Age of Rifles - Get Norm Kroger to work with Matrix on creating AoR2! AoR2 could cover 1850-1920. Most of the data base is already present from AoR.

Just some thoughts Image
I would love to see an AOR2! You can do WW1 battles in AOR1, but there is no provision for indirect fire, or armoured vehicles. Could Matrix possibly sign Norm Koger to develop AOR2. If so, I want to be among the first to place an order.

troopie



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Post by CFeicht »


I concur fully. Age of Rifles was a very well-done game and highly flexible. With a facelift like the one Steel Panthers received, AOR should be a really fantastic game.

I always wondered what AOR would look like in 800x600 or 1024x768.
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Post by GulFalco »

It sure would be a waste for those pretty maps from WoN to go to waste, now wouldn't it.

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Post by Erik Rutins »

I also would love to do a WWI game, but it doesn't seem likely in the immediate future. If things go well, of course, the possibilities expand greatly.

In the meantime, for those of you wanting a WWI grand-strategy fix, have you tried the (board) wargame Paths of Glory? A really great and fun simulation of WWI, IMHO. It's about a year old now, I believe and can be ordered from GMT Games (www.gmtgames.com).

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Post by Philippe R »

My first post ever on a discussion forum, so i will try not to be too boring.
The full strategic WW1 board game exists, it is called "La Grande Guerre" and was published last year by a French company: Azure Wish Editions. This game covers the entire war from August 1914 until 1919 or the breakdown of all the nations of one side.It has:
- 1840 counters, 9 turns/year.
- 4 or 5 different warplans for the initial phase of Austria-Hungary, France, Germany and Russia.
-Different rules covering the transition to the trenches.
-Technological Research on gas, airplanes, tactics, tanks and many more.
-A lot of events including Mata Hari, the sinking of Lusitania or the Zimmermann telegram.
-An extensive coverage of diplomatic options
including the effects of Blocus and submarine warfare on the Neutrals.
-All the military leaders of the war: from Samsonov to Admiral Hipper, each coming with 4 different factors.
-Political options regarding the national will to wage war or the stability of the parliament with possible occurence of strikes, mutiny or revolution.
-The tuning of the war footage for industry
-The military phase is very interactive and I never found myself idle even on the Western front.
All in all, I find it a great game which would maybe need minor adjustments.
I think that "The gamers" has just started to sell the games from Azure wish on their site (with I hope rules in English).
So what is my point:
A previous wargame by Azure Wish called "Europa Universalis" which covers Europe and the rest of the world from 1492 to 1792 has just been converted to a computer version. The address is www.europa-universalis.com. And by the way they are looking for an U.S. publisher (somebody interested ?).
I don't see why if it could work for this one it wouldn't work for "La Grande Guerre".
Maybe, You ,the Matrix Team, could have a look at this game and if you find it interesting and adaptable to a computer version, then, who knows.
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Post by Repo Man »

I was going to start a new thread, but my message seemed to be a good follow up to the previous message.

With the loss of WON and the lack of any other grand strategy napoleonic game in the works, perhaps a few thoughts are in order. Both WWI and WWII grand strategy games have been mentioned here before, and I think either one could fill the role slated for WON.

When I look for a grand strategy, my emphasis is on grand. The more minor neutrals, the better, the longer the game time, the better. The more pre-war posturing, the better. The more diplomacy, the better. With scant few exceptions, most WWI/WWII strategic games start at the beginning of the war, and last until it ends. While this is perhaps a logical place to begin and end, wargames of the Napolonic period are not limited to one war for the simple reason that there were many wars covering that period. I know that is a significant factor which initially attracted me to the Napoleonic time period. The closest I have seen to something similar in the WWII period is the WiF/DoD combination. I don’t know of any WWI era game which has similar features, although I do recall an old AH game focusing on the late colonial era which ended upon the commencement of the Great War.

If Matrix is considering a grand strategy game of either of these time periods, I would suggest making the start date in 1890 for a WWI and 1933-36 for a WWII game. Of the two, I think the former offers a wealth of information and terrific gaming possibilities. You have the naval arms race, the shifting alliances, Germany’s attempt to catch up in the race for colonies. There were several “minor” wars during this period, all of which are fertile ground for one hell of a game.

A pre-WWII game offers less options, but does offer a wealth of opportunity for variant strategies. For example, its far too late to build up the German Navy in 1939, but 1936 offers some hope, especially if the war doesn’t start until 1942 as originally planned by the Kriegsmarine.


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Post by VictorH »

Hi,

You should post these ideas on the "Matix's Surviving WON" topic. The folks from Matrix are monitoring that topic for such ideas and there are a number of us on that site trying to organize a project.
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