A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Spooky
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by Spooky »

ORIGINAL: Caltone

I have to agree with Mr. Frag here. This is a historical war game, not a comic book. Slots or no, they work best for the way the game is designed. Why not use a fixed path when it is easier, it works for the design, and might allow slower machines to run this game?

While I have a new machine at home, many grogs are notorius for keeping old comps running many years past their prime. You'll notice the system requirements for this game are lower than most stuff released today. It runs well on older laptops. Don't forget guys, this plays to a limited but world wide audience.

By RTS factor, Frag means everyone would rush to build the "good" stuff like in Warcraft where everyone builds the same units en masse. The other factor is you would see Japan with jets in '43 and before you know it, the Nimitz would come steaming in to save Pearl Harbor.

Kirk Douglas and crew to the rescue [:D][:D]

Have you played BTR ????? In this game, the German player controls the German planes production but the results are not really unhistorical ... only probably just a little optimized compared with the true historical German planes production.
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by Caltone »

Indeed, sometimes the simplest solutions can be the most elegant.

I was a little worried when I saw that production was going to be in the game. I didn't want to play Rise of Nations [:D] It's a good game I suppose but not what I wanted.

I like the production model here. Enough of it is fixed to keep things from getting too far in the alternate universe category, but the player can make some changes that yield measurable results.
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by vonmoltke »

The way I see it, there are real reasons the RTS behavior did not happen. Zoomie has one good reason: it makes you too weak early on, which in a game like this is deadly. Having Georges and Shindens in 1943 won't do you any good if you had to skimp on your forces to the point where the Allied player is operating carriers off Tokyo at will. The RTS power tech trick works because RTS game mechanics allow it to work. I think it would backfire in WitP.

Then there is the issue of doing a better job than our real counterparts. Part of doing that job better involves making better choices about the deployment of hardware. Fixing upgrade paths, and not allowing downgrades, locks the player into making the same mistakes that were actually made with aircraft deployment and, in the case of the Japanese player, puts an extra burden on their production decision making.

Oh, while I'm on that subject, something I just thought of. The Japanese player needs to optimize their production of aircraft to survive. However, not allowing group downgrades makes this task unrealistically difficult, since the Japanese player will find themselves left with stocks of older but useless aircraft.
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

Yes, just enough production to be "fun" but without the ability to simply pick the three or four best Japanese aircraft available and have the entire Japanese Air converted to just these three or four models by 1944....

Assume that your end game in production is the A7M, B7A, and D4Y with maybe the G4M2e. Try converting most every aircraft factory in the game to just these four types, leaving a few A62M, G4M1, D3Y and B5N's around for at least a few replacements, ignoring recon and transports entirely, and see what disaster befalls you! Nice way for Japan to lose against a human player by mid 1943....long before any one of these models even show up....
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by Mr.Frag »

While there is no longer any need to design programs this way

I guess this means you are offering to buy new computers to 75% of the forum members who have machines that barely made it into the "I can play WitP" catagory eh?

Sometimes your posts just crack me up at times. You identified exactly why it was coded the way it was for roughly 75% of the target market then you go off on a rant that it's not required because everyone has new machines.

The 25% of us who would have still bought and been able to run the game would be real happy right now. The rest would be somewhat annoyed don't you think?
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
While there is no longer any need to design programs this way

I guess this means you are offering to buy new computers to 75% of the forum members who have machines that barely made it into the "I can play WitP" catagory eh?

Sometimes your posts just crack me up at times. You identified exactly why it was coded the way it was for roughly 75% of the target market then you go off on a rant that it's not required because everyone has new machines.

The 25% of us who would have still bought and been able to run the game would be real happy right now. The rest would be somewhat annoyed don't you think?


Well you analysis of the current state of technology on the desktops of WitP purchasers is based on ???? Another very good reason for the client-server model design to gain momentum in this market. If you are still running a PII 450MHz box with 128 MB RAM, well then forget gaming, even wargaming. Take a look at your resource and CPU utilization numbers when this game is running! 100% pegged CPU and 200MB RAM, and that is on a PIII 650 with 256MB RAM And the same numbers on a PIV 3.4GZ with 2GB RAM! No difference. Why so much RAM and CPU? Has NOTHING to do with the data model used and EVERYTHING to do with multi-media baggage in tow. The game does not have 200MB of data in cache memory, it's all sound and video efflua. I doubt the ENTIRE WitP database cached into memory eats up more than a megabyte or two. And there is obvoiulsy a lot of tight/nested looping in code (typical of such design) to drive the CPU utilization so high (when it's not being driven by page-swapping because of media memory demand).

See, this is where you are delving into subject matter you have NO IDEA as to what you are talking about. My design suggestions are no more system intensive nor unable to run on lower end machines than the current obsolete fixed array base indexing model. The system utilization of these games is driven more by the eye-candy baggage than the game engine, itself.

Stick to what you know, Fraggo, programming, application design, application performance are what I make my living at and I'm as good as any and better than most at it.
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by Mr.Frag »

Stick to what you know, Fraggo, programming, application design, application performance are what I make my living at and I'm as good as any and better than most at it.

Umm, golly gee little programmer dude, what exactly do you think I do for a living for Big Blue? You are just a tad full of yourself at times. Like you are the only person in the world who ever wrote a line of code? I grew up and became an Architect. More full telling your types what to do [;)]

As far as your inability to read the posts here by others complaining about how slow the game runs on system blah blah blah, well, I'm not going to repeat all their posts, I'm sure they can slap you silly as far as your goal of making witp run slower then it already does by being pigged out with lots of useless libraries vs tight code routines that let the monster run on 4+ year old pc's [:D]
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Stick to what you know, Fraggo, programming, application design, application performance are what I make my living at and I'm as good as any and better than most at it.

Umm, golly gee little programmer dude, what exactly do you think I do for a living for Big Blue? You are just a tad full of yourself at times. Like you are the only person in the world who ever wrote a line of code? I grew up and became an Architect. More full telling your types what to do [;)]

As far as your inability to read the posts here by others complaining about how slow the game runs on system blah blah blah, well, I'm not going to repeat all their posts, I'm sure they can slap you silly as far as your goal of making witp run slower then it already does by being pigged out with lots of useless libraries vs tight code routines that let the monster run on 4+ year old pc's [:D]


Proof yet, you still haven't a singl;e clue as to what you are talking about. There are ALL KINDS of facilities in this day and age to things a LOT more flexible while still retaining small system footprints without losing speed. (Ever hear of dynamic arrays, hash-maps, etc...)

Case in point. I have a "wargame-like" test applet I wrote about four years ago, that uses the wxWidgets class library that I was using to test some scrolling techniques. It has a hex grid of 300x300, somehat LARGER than the one in WitP. It has attached to the "map" over 300 "bases", 100 "airfields" 100 "cities", over 200 "LCU's, 30,000 individual generic "aircraft", 1500 "ships" in 200 "task-forces", all computer generated but still game-like data. Each entity is a fully fleshed out data entity, not an empty object (i.e. I was testing for clean scrolling of a busy, large memory footprint hex map). I did this about four years ago on a PIII 650Mhz machine with 128MB Ram.

That is a test system with over 1.5 times the amount of data loaded into it that the ENTIRE WitP database. It uses STL maps, hash-maps, std::lists and few dynamic arrays to store it's data. And I can gain INSTANT access to any hex on the board via two std::maps (by LCU or by "base name", and a hashmap (x,y) coords) and acces to whatever is located there. Now there is no real logic behind the "game pieces" but they are full data elements. It's a standard WIN32 app and the WHOLE THING runs in 6MB RAM!!!


By comparison today, I demo a financial settlement system that consists of over 2.5 MILLION lines of code in 31 different processes that go against and Oracle Server, personal edition, on a PIV 2.4 GZ notebook with 512MB RAM. That little test system cranks out 25 million settlement txns a day. COMBINED, the database and application, together, eat up about 350MB RAM. That little demo system is probly 10X or more the amount of code, linked in libraries, and data processing as this game is.

What's the difference? These examples have NO candy. No sound, no embedded high-res graphics, no external visual or audio stuff at all.

Want to know where your system resources are being eaten up? It damned sure as HELL is NOT in the data processing parts of the code, unless they are using some really dumb techniques. It's in all that background sound and pretty video-graphics stuff. If have a full copy of Visual Studio installed run their little DirectX sample that basically loads up a DirectX session and displays a litte 3D object bouncing around......look at the memory that thing eats up!

Don't talk to me about high volume data processing, and that is what WitP is, a data processer with a psuedo real-time presentation layer. And that processing is NOT what is costing resources. The thing that forces the bottom end of computer resources up, even in wargames, is sound and video enhancements, NOT in how the programmers are dealing with the data and its processing.

As I stated, there is NO reason to code turn based wargames the way GG and Co., do it anymore. Not one, other than the time to invest in learning a new way. And, of course, that may very well be reason enough...
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Stick to what you know, Fraggo, programming, application design, application performance are what I make my living at and I'm as good as any and better than most at it.

Umm, golly gee little programmer dude, what exactly do you think I do for a living for Big Blue? You are just a tad full of yourself at times. Like you are the only person in the world who ever wrote a line of code? I grew up and became an Architect. More full telling your types what to do [;)]

As far as your inability to read the posts here by others complaining about how slow the game runs on system blah blah blah, well, I'm not going to repeat all their posts, I'm sure they can slap you silly as far as your goal of making witp run slower then it already does by being pigged out with lots of useless libraries vs tight code routines that let the monster run on 4+ year old pc's [:D]

And you want to talk about "being pigged out on lots of useless libraries"!!! 80% of your memory use and slowness is derived from guess what! That third party ULTIMATE PIG library......Direct X!!! All to play some sounds and video clips most turn off after day one....
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by Hard Sarge »

All complaining aside
how does wanting to be able to change a I-153 unit over to a Demon unit instead of waiting for the P-40 N to come along, make this a unhistorcal game, or a gamer wanted to play with only uber planes (I like the Demon, I got Demons in stock, but nothing uses them in this Campaign I am playing)

and if the arguement is going to be made to keep the game historcal, by not letting the Allied players make changes to plane units, then don't let the JP player make changes either

make the units what they were, and if we disagree, we can post or cry in the OOB post about why this or that unit is flying the wrong type of bird

but again, I wasn't asking for the Allies to be able to change all there planes to the best of the pack, only to be able to use what is in stock at the time, and maybe using PP would be a way to control it, the better the plane type, the more it will cost you

PP points down the road are to vauleable to wastes on just anything, so it would be a game choice, do you change over a HQ to a new command area or do you give a Fighter Squadron some planes

HARD_Sarge

Zoomie, when is your game coming out, I hope you got a demo we can try
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

All complaining aside
how does wanting to be able to change a I-153 unit over to a Demon unit instead of waiting for the P-40 N to come along, make this a unhistorcal game, or a gamer wanted to play with only uber planes (I like the Demon, I got Demons in stock, but nothing uses them in this Campaign I am playing)

and if the arguement is going to be made to keep the game historcal, by not letting the Allied players make changes to plane units, then don't let the JP player make changes either

make the units what they were, and if we disagree, we can post or cry in the OOB post about why this or that unit is flying the wrong type of bird

but again, I wasn't asking for the Allies to be able to change all there planes to the best of the pack, only to be able to use what is in stock at the time, and maybe using PP would be a way to control it, the better the plane type, the more it will cost you

PP points down the road are to vauleable to wastes on just anything, so it would be a game choice, do you change over a HQ to a new command area or do you give a Fighter Squadron some planes

Once again, there are design limitations that are going to keep this from happenning, to a big degree, even with the editor. We'll leave it to others "in-the-know" to fully explain the why at a technical level, should they desire (they've shown no such compunction to do so so far). It's still as good a game as this type of game gets these days, even without flexible upgrade paths. Most of us can live with it and be happy!
Zoomie, when is your game coming out, I hope you got a demo we can try

Actually, WitP is taking 100% away from my own efforts! I have my basic presentation libs almost done, but I have yet to play around with the "server" side. It took three programmers what? 3 years to get WitP out the door, and that was with borrowing a lot of stuff from UV. And that was also working full-time.

I would hope to have some kind of feasability demo working inside of two years or so, assuming no life altering personal circumstances (like the release of another WitP type title!). Remember, I HAVE a day job and two kids in college to pay for and WitP turns to play.....
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by Caltone »

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Stick to what you know, Fraggo, programming, application design, application performance are what I make my living at and I'm as good as any and better than most at it.

Umm, golly gee little programmer dude, what exactly do you think I do for a living for Big Blue? You are just a tad full of yourself at times. Like you are the only person in the world who ever wrote a line of code? I grew up and became an Architect. More full telling your types what to do [;)]

As far as your inability to read the posts here by others complaining about how slow the game runs on system blah blah blah, well, I'm not going to repeat all their posts, I'm sure they can slap you silly as far as your goal of making witp run slower then it already does by being pigged out with lots of useless libraries vs tight code routines that let the monster run on 4+ year old pc's [:D]

And you want to talk about "being pigged out on lots of useless libraries"!!! 80% of your memory use and slowness is derived from guess what! That third party ULTIMATE PIG library......Direct X!!! All to play some sounds and video clips most turn off after day one....

As I stated, there is NO reason to code turn based wargames the way GG and Co., do it anymore. Not one, other than the time to invest in learning a new way. And, of course, that may very well be reason enough...

Umm Zoomie, no offense but you are really just rude. It's poor form to come into someone's house and criticize thier work.

How would your wife feel if strangers came over and spent the evening telling her how awful her decorating choices were? Don't you just love it when your boss tells you all about the things you've done wrong?

I'm a programmer as well, and I can't count the number of times I've had to pick up someone else's code and rework it or debug it because someone's on vacation or transferred. All along the way I'm thinking "I would've done this or that, this would've been a better way" When I finished I didn't go running to the guy and tell him how bad his work was and how I would have done it better.

That's just rude.

I look at it this way, WitP works, it's a hell of a lot of fun, it plays on a wide range of machines, and it's the fulfillment of many wargamers dreams. Some of this "I'm better than you" crap has to stop, starting to ring a bit of mine's bigger than yours [:D]

Let's be adults and enjoy this excellent game. Lets talk about the game and not the way it crunches numbers. OK?
"Order AP Hill to prepare for battle" -- Stonewall Jackson
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Caltone
ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag



Umm, golly gee little programmer dude, what exactly do you think I do for a living for Big Blue? You are just a tad full of yourself at times. Like you are the only person in the world who ever wrote a line of code? I grew up and became an Architect. More full telling your types what to do [;)]

As far as your inability to read the posts here by others complaining about how slow the game runs on system blah blah blah, well, I'm not going to repeat all their posts, I'm sure they can slap you silly as far as your goal of making witp run slower then it already does by being pigged out with lots of useless libraries vs tight code routines that let the monster run on 4+ year old pc's [:D]

And you want to talk about "being pigged out on lots of useless libraries"!!! 80% of your memory use and slowness is derived from guess what! That third party ULTIMATE PIG library......Direct X!!! All to play some sounds and video clips most turn off after day one....

As I stated, there is NO reason to code turn based wargames the way GG and Co., do it anymore. Not one, other than the time to invest in learning a new way. And, of course, that may very well be reason enough...

Umm Zoomie, no offense but you are really just rude. It's poor form to come into someone's house and criticize thier work.

How would your wife feel if strangers came over and spent the evening telling her how awful her decorating choices were? Don't you just love it when your boss tells you all about the things you've done wrong?

I'm a programmer as well, and I can't count the number of times I've had to pick up someone else's code and rework it or debug it because someone's on vacation or transferred. All along the way I'm thinking "I would've done this or that, this would've been a better way" When I finished I didn't go running to the guy and tell him how bad his work was and how I would have done it better.

That's just rude.

I look at it this way, WitP works, it's a hell of a lot of fun, it plays on a wide range of machines, and it's the fulfillment of many wargamers dreams. Some of this "I'm better than you" crap has to stop, starting to ring a bit of mine's bigger than yours [:D]

Let's be adults and enjoy this excellent game. Lets talk about the game and not the way it crunches numbers. OK?

Nothing rude at all about any of it. I have always defended the playability of this game, and the general fun of it and always state as long as if you play within the design limitation of the game you are going to be more than pleased.

However, once posters start posting angst at features that are obviously well beyond the design capabilities of the game, as it sits today, like hard-coded aircraft upgrade paths, it invites at least some minimal explanation as to WHY they may not be able to "fix" such a thing. Since the developers almost NEVER post to these forums (and the betas are NOT in any way, shape or form, nor the Matrix staff that posts here), some try and expain in a very broad sense, without detailed knowledge of the specifics, WHY some "fixes" may not be possible.

And stating clear FACT is not being rude. Hard coded, fixed array indexing, 100% memory caching of data, "slots", old style 'C' language procedural programming and pointer arithmetic are quite plain and simply......OBSOLETE methods that left other software markets many, many years ago for obvious reason. That is plain and simple fact. Microfsoft's Direct X libaries are like everything else Microsoft does, bloated, cumbersome, and unstable. No opinion there, no attempt at a value judgement or anything else, just the way of the world today. Those that chose to continue to use those facilities do so with full knowledge of all their warts and pointing out those warts as a possible explanation of why some things cannot, nor likely will not ever be "fixed" has nothing at all to do with rudeness.

The WAY it crunches numbers has a GREAT DEAL to do with why many players get frustrated at why parts of the game do what it does and why so many of the support folks constantly tell these people that these kinds of "issues" are not ever going to be addressed because "it wasn't designed to do things that way". The WAY games do things make for a lot of very entertaining, interesting, and enlightening threads for the more technically savy. And since Matrix does not provide a "techie" forum, this is the only place those kinds of things can ever be discussed. If you're not a techie, don't read technically oriented posts.
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by SunDevil_MatrixForum »

Zoomie,

Thought you might want to read this

http://frogtoss.com/index.php?content=f ... ir=journal
There is no chance, no destiny, no fate, that can circumvent or hinder or control the firm resolve of a determined soul.
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: SunDevil

Zoomie,

Thought you might want to read this

http://frogtoss.com/index.php?content=f ... ir=journal


Yes, a very good article, once you context it that he is talking more about mainstream 3D, FPS/RTS type games.

His first step is establishing the support routines for the accomplishment of the mundane. He misses a bit on those needing to be resuable, either as they stand or easily EXTENSIBLE. The idea is a good core library should be able to be used in titles 10 years from now.

His second step, build your art assets. Well, he's really talking about the level designs and video in FPS/RTS titles but it applies here, too. Alas, folks with good back end designs are usually not artists at all. Problem is artists are a touchy lot, and like to do stimulating work like anyone else. We heard from a Matrix GA here a while back claiming boredom at having to do WIN32 widget painting art.

Last step is where the time is supposed to be place. Not in mundane coding like playing sound files, calling drawing routines, capturing user input, saving games, handling mouse-clicks, etc....

In pitfall #1 he states :

"You need to get through technology development as quickly as possible. If you disagree with this statement, you care about something else besides finishing your game. "

What quicker way to get through the technology development quickly that use code somebody else a lot smarter, more experienced, and more highly tested than third party toolkits and class libraries to deal with such mundane crap as collecting data from the user via the UI. These kits are UBIQUITOUS. But, according to one of our friendly Matrix graphics guys, doing the graphical overlays for that is "boring". And he's entitled to have some fun on the job, too, right?

Pitfall #2 is the pipeline....collecting and developing the content. While he's talking about getting your music, artwork for your levels, level designers, etc...in this genre, in this game, in particular, he's probably talking about the OOB and accompanying component bitmaps... He calls it "pipeline bloat".

#3 is essentially a rant on how to make your lower level components RESUABLE by avoiding too much dependency. Nothing too cosmic there. If you are finding you are throwing away 80% of library code with each new game, well, you've skimped on Step 1 and proably fell into Pit #1 too much.

And #4 is why, if I ever get around to getting somewhere with my own efforts, it will be a re-make of something like North Atlantic '85 with 10-12 bases, a ahalf dozen aircraft types on each side and maybe a dozen or fewer ship classes, and no production, no visual or audio bells and whistles, bascially "not much".

About three years ago a two man team put out a very simplistic, bargain basement, WWII European theater turn based game. Used a basic WIN32 GUI not DirectX video or audio. Sold for something like $19.95 via download. Had an uncannily addictive game-play though. And you could play the entire main campaign in a weekend! Sold 75,000 copies in the first year.....got a 88 rating in PC gamer. I emailed the guys and asked them what they did and if they made any money, themselves off it. They used Visual C++ and MFC for the GUI, used "off-the-shelf" clip art for bitmaps and backgrounds, no digitized maps or anything, just played .wav files for sound, took only about 8 months to pump it out. They each claimed their take was over $100,000 EACH for 8 months of work.... (Is 10-15% of the gross a typcial "take" for the developers?....so ignorant about side of this business...) And they claim it more of hobby as each claimed to have a "day-job".

Don't know how truthful that was, but that's what I call an "Exploration Game"! Essentially they followed this article's formula to a "T". MFC was the Step1, technical foundation (someone else's expertise), public domain clipart the step 2 "art assets". And their efforts spent almost 100% on steo 3, a fun gameplay engine! And they avoid all the pitfals. And while almost everyone here would find that game "pathetic", it was a turnbase wargame, it sold a near six figure copy and actually made someone REAL money.

Lesson. Don't believe everything you are told.....on either side of an issue.
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by Caltone »

Well I still think you're rude. The folks at 2by3 have long been a quiet lot. They don't post a lot anywhere, never have. What we do know is that wargames are thier passion. We also know they consistently deliver great products to a niche market that would otherwise be overlooked.

I dunno, If I had spent years of my life developing something that delivered what I claimed it would, I just don't think I'd want to hear how I used obsolete methods to do it or how my skills were useless etc, etc etc. And to make it worse, have this done in my house.

It was clearly explained why we can't or won't see player defined upgrades earlier in this thread. It was a design decision. Did we really need to know it was due to a hard coded database structure that you consider out of touch?

One knock on us programmer types has been the way we interact with carbon based life forms. I have made an effort in my life to break that mold. Perhaps others could do the same. [:-]
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by Mr.Frag »

Did we really need to know it was due to a hard coded database structure that you consider out of touch?

Cal, just to point out to you ... it has nothing to down with a hard coded database structure, just as waypoints have nothing to do with a hard coded structure and as usual Zoomie the "programmer" speaks in total ignorance about stuff he knows nothing about.

Each upgrade path requires storage space. Each potential waypoint if they existed required storage space.

In Zoomies's world, you have have P4 3.4 Extreme's with 2 gigs of ram to run this on never mind the fact that the save game files are right on the borderline of being able to send them through the email systems out there, but of course Zoomie the "programmer" doesn't think about such practical matters because he is just that, a programmer.

Thats why the have designers and architects that instruct the programmers on what to do ... they are too busy staring at the trees they miss out on the forest. [;)]
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Caltone

Well I still think you're rude. The folks at 2by3 have long been a quiet lot. They don't post a lot anywhere, never have. What we do know is that wargames are thier passion. We also know they consistently deliver great products to a niche market that would otherwise be overlooked.

And I have stated otherwise where, exactly? Provide quote/link, please.
I dunno, If I had spent years of my life developing something that delivered what I claimed it would, I just don't think I'd want to hear how I used obsolete methods to do it or how my skills were useless etc, etc etc. And to make it worse, have this done in my house.

Whether someone want to listen to constructive criticism is personal choice. As you stated, the actual programmers never post here and doubt they even have the time to read here very much. I'm personally, ALWAYS open to criticism of my work and designs. We have a robust code and design review process in this company that is EXACTLY what this is. Others doing nothing but poking holes in everything you do and offerring suggestions for improvement. Good development doesn't happen in a vacuum of group-think. Welcome to an INDUSTRY STANDARD pracitce in most commercial software shops. And believe it or not, these guys, DO listen and DO change! A LOT!

It was clearly explained why we can't or won't see player defined upgrades earlier in this thread. It was a design decision. Did we really need to know it was due to a hard coded database structure that you consider out of touch?

Absolutely YES! There are quite number of posters that, indeed DO like to know WHY something are not easily doable. If it results in a constructive criticsim of techniques used in the development process maybe it will result in some reconsideration of basic design choices on the next title. And I'm not the only one who is critical of the underlieing design of this game. People have been critical of GG's programming style for over 10 years. Some of them even work for Matrix! If you doubt that, you haven't been around these forums very long.
One knock on us programmer types has been the way we interact with carbon based life forms. I have made an effort in my life to break that mold. Perhaps others could do the same. [:-]

Yea, like posting, interactively, to spirited threads without getting defensive about whatever you consider your "baby". One of the consistant criticisms the Matrix staff gets, in general, is how defensive they often get about a lot of things. Seems like that applies to some posters as well. If one can't take constructive criticism, tough, that's a personal problem, get over it.
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Arnir
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Location: Alberta. In Texas.

RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by Arnir »

Has anyone considered opening a game design issue thread here or in the General area to discuss these things? While a lot of this is (or maybe fascinating) I'm not sure if it always help address the threads in question in a constructive way.

ZOOMIE1980 and Mr. Frag, y'all really need to just ignore each other or fight a duel. [;)]
SunDevil_MatrixForum
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RE: A6M2 cant upgrade to A6M3?

Post by SunDevil_MatrixForum »

<-- Marvin Gaye's "Let's get it on" plays in the background -->
There is no chance, no destiny, no fate, that can circumvent or hinder or control the firm resolve of a determined soul.
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