Heroes of the Allies

[fbastos]

Well noticed on the prior service record, Dude. Point taken!

F.

[fbastos]

Okies, I got convinced that the 2nd USMC was already heroic by 41.

Now, the 25th Inf looks like a bit of a strech. The division only had guard duty in Hawaii before, if I remember it correctly.

Other than having the hindsight that they will perform well in Guadalcanal, is there any other argument to prove that they had experience greater than all of the Soviet divisions that had just fought (and very well) against the Japanese on Nomohan?

Regards,
F.

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: The Dude

remember, lots of those marines would have had extensive expeirience working in Central America during the 20-30s. And several 2nd Mar Div units worked as complete units in the atlantic. So the troops defintiely had operational expierience, however the 2nd Mar Div hadnt operated as a complete unit and that i think is represented well in the game by a damaged div. The time needed to build it up could represent the work up and exercise need to get the div effective as a cohesive organization

Even though I'm an old Army "dogface" I defer to no one in my admiration for the Marines. [&o]

Even so, I think the 2nd Marine Division's experience is overrated at the start of the game.

The Marine's pre-war peacetime establishment was about 19,000 men. By the end of 1941, the Corps had tripled in strength -- so at least two-thirds of the soldiers only had from 0 to 2 years training. Most of the veterans would not have had combat experience, even of the 'pacification' sort; the last Marine involvement in Central America ended in 1934, over seven years before Pearl Harbor.

The 2nd Division was formed -- on paper -- in February, 1941. The core of the division was the 6th Regiment, which was to be expanded by new recruits into a full-sized division. But in May, the 6th Regiment and its supporting units -- chosen specifically because they were the elements of the 2nd Dision ready for active deployment -- were ordered to the East Coast to be ready to participate in an occupation of the Azores. When the Nazi threat to Portugal blew over, the 6th Regiment was sent to Iceland.

What was left of the 2nd Marines in California was understrength, stripped of its veteran cadre, and still being used as a replacement pool for other Marine units.

"Back in California, the 2d Marine Division was rounding into shape, engaged in constant training and maneuvers. [The unit had not] reached its full strength yet as constant demands for Marines for base, fleet, and barracks duty drained the available manpower pool as fast as it filled. . . On November 30th . . . the 2nd Division plus its Air Wing had about 8,000 men on the West Coast . . . (The full strength of a reinforced division was about 20,000)." Opening Moves: Marines Gear Up for War. Marines in World War II Commemorative Series by Henry I. Shaw, Jr. 1991

[Mike Scholl]

A lot being said about Allied "lack of experiance" here..., what about the Japanese?
Yes, the had a number of formations that had fought in China (against a poorly-
trained, ill-equiped, and under-supplied for) and some that had had their heads
handed to them by the Russians. The rest were basically as "green" as the Allies
on 12/07/41...but they performed well enough to get the job done (against ill-
prepared, under-equiped, and poorly supplied Allied units). So training and indoc-
tronation must be able to produce usefull units.

I can't see any particular reason to have some of the Allied units "noticably superior"
to others in 1941 either..., with the possible exception of the "Wake" contingent and
the Philippines Scouts and a few others who proved themselves to be a "cut above"
in the actual campaign. But both sides were learning during the opening months.