Ridiculous

[Mr.Frag]

Think you'll find that you just got burned by coordination in the worst way.

It sounds like due to high cap settings, you drained away most of your fighters leaving very little for escort. The uncoordination rule bit ... first group happened to be all your escort ... other group failed to meet the minimum cap rule and their mission was scrubbed hence none flew.

Need to see the turn just before if you don't mind just to verify that. Mail 'r to me Rob

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: John B

It does seem pretty difficult for an Allied CV force to repeat the kind of results in 1942 which happened historically. After a few very painful encounters with the KB etc, in previous playings of the campaign game going up to the end of June 1942, I've come to the conclusion the wisest strategy is to venture out with my CVs only when I've clear information that the Jap CVs are somewhere else. This time around I've set up Lunga as a kind of unsinkable aircraft carrier, and I'm hopefully letting the KB use up its best pilots in repeated attacks, which it seems to be making, possibly trying to lure my CV task force out from Noumea. No chance; I lost "Yorktown" in the kind of fiasco described at the start of this thread, and ain't sticking my head out again yet awhile [:(]

Actually, I'm finding it impossible. In the 8 carrier battles I have participated in with various PBEM opponents, I have had my ass handed to me each time. No matter what kind of jump or advantage I have had. This "sim" is hardwired against a successful American carrier early in the game. Which, overall Im okay with, but I think if you catch your opponant with his pants down, (ie midway) he should pay, no matter what the time period is. The lesson here is just retreat to the west coast and wait until 43. It is pointless to take major naval assets out and face japanese air. Im waitiing patiently until i have an overwhelming advantage in a game now (which isnt likely since in two out of my 3 games I now have zero floating carriers) prior to 43 to see if I can actually win a carrier battle. Because in even duels, Im "O" for 8.

[rroberson]

sadly I dont think I have the previous turn. IM usually good about saving them so I can study the map, but lately football has been sucking away my time so IM doing turns on the fly. Let me see what I can dig up.
Reiyc may have it though.

[Erik Rutins]

Rob,

Truly sorry to hear what happened. Tell me that you and Reyric put aside the pre-execution save files? If so, please e-mail them to me at erikr@matrixgames.com and each of you e-mail me with your passwords as well. I'd like to have one where I can check over the exact settings and orders of your carrier group and hopefully try to duplicate the execution. It's almost certainly a corner case with all the die rolls going against you, but in case it's a scout plane related bug or a settings bug, it's worth a look.

Regards,

- Erik

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: rroberson

ORIGINAL: John B

It does seem pretty difficult for an Allied CV force to repeat the kind of results in 1942 which happened historically. After a few very painful encounters with the KB etc, in previous playings of the campaign game going up to the end of June 1942, I've come to the conclusion the wisest strategy is to venture out with my CVs only when I've clear information that the Jap CVs are somewhere else. This time around I've set up Lunga as a kind of unsinkable aircraft carrier, and I'm hopefully letting the KB use up its best pilots in repeated attacks, which it seems to be making, possibly trying to lure my CV task force out from Noumea. No chance; I lost "Yorktown" in the kind of fiasco described at the start of this thread, and ain't sticking my head out again yet awhile [:(]

Actually, I'm finding it impossible. In the 8 carrier battles I have participated in with various PBEM opponents, I have had my ass handed to me each time. No matter what kind of jump or advantage I have had. This "sim" is hardwired against a successful American carrier early in the game. Which, overall Im okay with, but I think if you catch your opponant with his pants down, (ie midway) he should pay, no matter what the time period is. The lesson here is just retreat to the west coast and wait until 43. It is pointless to take major naval assets out and face japanese air. Im waitiing patiently until i have an overwhelming advantage in a game now (which isnt likely since in two out of my 3 games I now have zero floating carriers) prior to 43 to see if I can actually win a carrier battle. Because in even duels, Im "O" for 8.

Haven't had many great CV encounters yet, just one south of Milne Bay where as the Americans I had my lunch handed to me. But all this is beginning to sound as if the naval air model sits precisely where it did in UV, which means no way Jose there can be a Midway, which means the model is still broken.

Too sad.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn
Haven't had many great CV encounters yet, just one south of Milne Bay where as the Americans I had my lunch handed to me. But all this is beginning to sound as if the naval air model sits precisely where it did in UV, which means no way Jose there can be a Midway, which means the model is still broken.

Just wanted to chime in here and add a data point. I've been able to win Coral Sea-type battles, or at least draw, in the early war. In other words, roughly even forces from mid-42 onwards (F4F and the first set of refits). Midway, in my opinion, was a significant "fluke" and the US was very lucky to get it, though they did make their own luck to a degree. I would doubt it's impossible in WitP - one of its strengths is making some of the more unusual historical results possible, but I would hope that it would be very rare. If you set up the Midway battle (somebody get busy with that if you need a side project) and ran it 50 times, I'd expect the historical results. I think the US should expect to get some hits in, but achieving the incredibly lopsided losses they did historically should be rare.

Regards,

- Erik

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn
Haven't had many great CV encounters yet, just one south of Milne Bay where as the Americans I had my lunch handed to me. But all this is beginning to sound as if the naval air model sits precisely where it did in UV, which means no way Jose there can be a Midway, which means the model is still broken.

Just wanted to chime in here and add a data point. I've been able to win Coral Sea-type battles, or at least draw, in the early war. In other words, roughly even forces from mid-42 onwards (F4F and the first set of refits). Midway, in my opinion, was a significant "fluke" and the US was very lucky to get it, though they did make their own luck to a degree. I would doubt it's impossible in WitP - one of its strengths is making some of the more unusual historical results possible, but I would hope that it would be very rare. If you set up the Midway battle (somebody get busy with that if you need a side project) and ran it 50 times, I'd expect the historical results. I think the US should expect to get some hits in, but achieving the incredibly lopsided losses they did historically should be rare.

Regards,

- Erik

But that's just the point, Erik. It matters not what you think or I think or somebody else thinks, for history is the only and absolute judge of what was possible and unless WitP was designed to be kind of fantasic prism through which we might reinterpret history then historical results need to be the norm, not some rarity which pleases one opinion or the other.

Put another way, given Japanese and American actions at Midway the result was not so hard to believe, and while I understand why, at this scale, the game cannot hope to model all of the myriad detail which went into realizing that result, at the least the game model ought to recognize and make an effort to emulate that historical result. As with UV, this is apparently not the case before us.

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Rob,

Truly sorry to hear what happened. Tell me that you and Reyric put aside the pre-execution save files? If so, please e-mail them to me at erikr@matrixgames.com and each of you e-mail me with your passwords as well. I'd like to have one where I can check over the exact settings and orders of your carrier group and hopefully try to duplicate the execution. It's almost certainly a corner case with all the die rolls going against you, but in case it's a scout plane related bug or a settings bug, it's worth a look.

Regards,

- Erik

I dont have pre execution files unfortunetly...due to the football season I have been a bit haphazard about my saving routines. I have sent xargun my post execution file. The only concern I have is that i somehow put everybody on naval search, I tend to doubt that since I double checked everything before i executed. If reiyc has the preex file I can duplicate it and sent it to you. Like i told reiyc the show will go on. I just want this fixed so it doesnt ruin future acts.

[Mr.Frag]

Don't loose hope ... a quick little run of Coral Sea's scenario throwing them right at each other:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/04/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 56,95

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 14

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 15
SBD Dauntless x 34
TBD Devastator x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 9 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 8 destroyed, 36 damaged
TBD Devastator: 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 11, on fire, heavy damage
CV Zuikaku
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 2, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet
4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 56,95

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7
SBD Dauntless x 34
TBD Devastator x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless: 5 destroyed, 31 damaged
TBD Devastator: 5 destroyed, 8 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 4, on fire
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Ariake
CA Myoko

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
2 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet
4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 57,96

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 22
D3A Val x 19
B5N Kate x 25

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 6
F4F-4 Wildcat x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 16 destroyed
D3A Val: 9 destroyed, 15 damaged
B5N Kate: 13 destroyed, 17 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 10 destroyed, 1 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat: 4 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Yorktown

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
1 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 57,96

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 14
D3A Val x 20
B5N Kate x 21

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1
F4F-4 Wildcat x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 8 destroyed, 16 damaged
B5N Kate: 11 destroyed, 18 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 2 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 10 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Astoria

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
1 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 56,95

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7
SBD Dauntless x 16
TBD Devastator x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 4 destroyed, 4 damaged
TBD Devastator: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
CA Haguro, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet
3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 57,96

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 20
D3A Val x 6
B5N Kate x 9

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 8 destroyed
B5N Kate: 2 destroyed, 9 damaged


Allied Ships
CA New Orleans
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
1 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

End Result:

CV Shokaku, 94 sys, 32 flt, 49 fire
CV Zuikaku, 69 sys, 38 flt, 49 fire
CA Haguro, 26 sys, 1 flt, 8 fire

CV Yorktown, 26 sys, 6 flt, 16 fire
CV Lexington, 57 sys, 49 flt, 49 fire
CA Astoria, none

[Tristanjohn]

Interesting, But with all those hits (assuming 1000-lb. bombs, and even allowing for FOW) both IJN flattops ought to be long gone, not floating around out there with some sort of chance for survival, don't you think?

Anyway, as with UV I somehow get this feeling that this kind of result will not somehow crop up in my own games, just from replays posted by others. [:)]

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

Interesting, But with all those hits (assuming 1000-lb. bombs, and even allowing for FOW) both IJN flattops ought to be long gone, not floating around out there with some sort of chance for survival, don't you think?

Anyway, as with UV I somehow get this feeling that this kind of result will not somehow crop up in my own games, just from replays posted by others. [:)]

As a recipient of many allied 1000 lb bombs on IJN CVs several times, I only have a couple things to say.. Figure half of the hits are FOW and another half didn't penetrate the Deck Armor... So those CVs are not as hurt as you think (not counting critical hits), but will survive if not caught by another air strike.

Xargun

[Lemurs!]

Hi all,

I just faced my first Pbem carrier battle as Japan.
My opponent sent in 3 or so uncordinated strikes from 3 carriers in 1 TF. Two of the three had fighter cover, and my Zeros (correctly) cannot shoot down many Dauntlesses. Hiryu is at 73 SYS, 25 FLOT.

Then i sent 1 massive coordinated strike from my 4 carriers and sank all 3 USA carriers.

The things i have noticed is that strikes seem to be chosen by group not plane, so including 2-5 plane groups is just asking for weird results.
I basically like the American coordination rule as the Americans did have major problems with this.

Rob, what operating systems are you two using? I have found that 1 person on XP and another on 98se does weird things to the game.

Other than that i agree with Zoomie; the bell curve is pretty flat. The land combat has this weirdness of results as well.

Mike

[Oznoyng]

You guys should check your sent folders. I keep all my game files in folders in Outlook and I can go back to them to look if I want to.

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Rob, what operating systems are you two using? I have found that 1 person on XP and another on 98se does weird things to the game.

Mike

I bet the wierdness is with XP and Win98Se using a different seed generated number for the results... Same as if you run different versions...

Xargun

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Hi all,

I just faced my first Pbem carrier battle as Japan.
My opponent sent in 3 or so uncordinated strikes from 3 carriers in 1 TF. Two of the three had fighter cover, and my Zeros (correctly) cannot shoot down many Dauntlesses. Hiryu is at 73 SYS, 25 FLOT.

Then i sent 1 massive coordinated strike from my 4 carriers and sank all 3 USA carriers.

The things i have noticed is that strikes seem to be chosen by group not plane, so including 2-5 plane groups is just asking for weird results.
I basically like the American coordination rule as the Americans did have major problems with this.

Rob, what operating systems are you two using? I have found that 1 person on XP and another on 98se does weird things to the game.

Other than that i agree with Zoomie; the bell curve is pretty flat. The land combat has this weirdness of results as well.

Mike

Windows 2000, but that really should make a difference.

[neuromancer]

I would say do two things.

First, go back to the save before this attack (assuming you can find the files, if nothing else the email that he had sent you should have it). Run it through a couple times doing the same things you did the first time, with no changes, see how wacky the results get. It might have been one of those incredbly bad luck things (the extreme end of the bell curve).

I agree though that this result is so far out of wack that it should never have occured at all.

Secondly, if the results of the re-runs tend towards the same wacky result, then take those scout planes off Naval attack. Perhaps it is as suggested that the scouts somehow are messing up the routines. If after a few re-runs everything is going much better, then it is a bug in the Naval strike routines involving the scouts.

If it turns out to 'just' be an extreme - and extremely unpleasant - result, then it isn't so much a bug as a poor probability scheme, and that should probably still be changed.


As for ships taking stupid amounts of damage, one thing that other people have noted, is that in UV (and probably WitP as well) is that ships can sometimes take more than twice the number of hits as was required to sink them historically.

The obvious example here being Zuikaku taking ten 1000 lb bombs hits and Shokaku taking fourteen, and neither of them in any pressing danger of sinking (both less than 40 float damage, even though they have extensive system damage).

I would have expected both to have either been completely gutted and nothing but hulks (great, its floating, and that is about it), or have exploded into a million little pieces. There is a certain point when I think all the fuel and ammunition carried by a carrier is going to detonate, and that would be that.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

Interesting, But with all those hits (assuming 1000-lb. bombs, and even allowing for FOW) both IJN flattops ought to be long gone, not floating around out there with some sort of chance for survival, don't you think?

Anyway, as with UV I somehow get this feeling that this kind of result will not somehow crop up in my own games, just from replays posted by others. [:)]

As a recipient of many allied 1000 lb bombs on IJN CVs several times, I only have a couple things to say.. Figure half of the hits are FOW and another half didn't penetrate the Deck Armor... So those CVs are not as hurt as you think (not counting critical hits), but will survive if not caught by another air strike.

Xargun

A 1000-lb. bomb may or may not have exploded inside, but even a single bomb of that weight into the bowels of a flattop would do a whale of damage.

As for the damage actually visited on them: it wouldn't surprise me if those flattops were still flying missions the next day! But that's part of an old problem if indeed that's the case. [:)]

[John B]

Both in UV and WitP I've tended to discount the reportss of damage inflicted on Jap CVs unless they actually show up sunk in the daily intel reports. Time and again I've seen one apparently take damage certain to send it to the bottom, but a couple of weeks later its back.

I'd agree that in '42 the Allies have to get a good slice of luck to win a carrier battle. I think only once in UV have I managed to deal the Jap CV's a knock -out blow that early on.

My next cunning plan is to use Kamikaze Wirraways [:D]

[Mr.Frag]

As for the damage actually visited on them: it wouldn't surprise me if those flattops were still flying missions the next day! But that's part of an old problem if indeed that's the case.

Any CV with greater then 49 SYS damage will not be flying anything. What I posted was a better then Coral Sea result ... 2 CV Yanks against 2 CV + 1 CVL Japan.

Japan
2 CV's now useless, only CVL left

Yanks
1 CV out of fight, 1 CV still active

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

As for the damage actually visited on them: it wouldn't surprise me if those flattops were still flying missions the next day! But that's part of an old problem if indeed that's the case.

Any CV with greater then 49 SYS damage will not be flying anything. What I posted was a better then Coral Sea result ... 2 CV Yanks against 2 CV + 1 CVL Japan.

Japan
2 CV's now useless, only CVL left

Yanks
1 CV out of fight, 1 CV still active

What was the actual result, then? Close to what you posted?