Elites.....

sven · Post by **sven** » Fri Jun 15, 2001 11:29 pm

Originally posted by Brummagem:
Ammo, you are so right.
Sven, sorry just my vain attempt at humor.
To everyone, I think that anyone, who has died in battle, for at least one brief moment was...elite.

amen...

and Brumm it was a joke...

I am not anti German just anti unbalance in the game. Hell I'm 1/2 German.

Brummagem · Post by **Brummagem** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 1:39 am

No problem, balance is good. Of course having to work with a perceived weakness can make your opponent a little over confident.

Of course having your Tiger turn into a smoking hulk because a 37 mm got in a lucky shot isn't much fun either.

ruxius · Post by **ruxius** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 3:45 am

It's not the first time I can say sven sees unbalance where Germans are 'into' the dealing...
The only elite troops he found were Germans ?
Regularly follows a comment or a pray or a question about US Army...
It seems sometimes the game is not always a game...

sven · Post by **sven** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 3:48 am

Originally posted by ruxius:
It's not the first time I can say sven sees unbalance where Germans are 'into' the dealing...
The only elite troops he found were Germans ?
Regularly follows a comment or a pray or a question about US Army...
It seems sometimes the game is not always a game...

No Ruxius...

read carefully....

I am just amazed that some think all Germans were elite....

of course using the surrendered in groups of 100,000 or more as the criterion Italy was elite too.

ruxius · Post by **ruxius** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 4:03 am

Originally posted by sven:
of course using the surrendered in groups of 100,000 or more as the criterion Italy was elite too.

ah ! ah ! ah ! No comments,
only confirmations...

I still can't see the amazingator's post here... :rolleyes:

BruceAZ_MatrixForum · Post by **BruceAZ_MatrixForum** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 5:23 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sven:
[QB]After some reflection I have decided that I was wrong about the Germans having too many elites. I am asking that all US and USMC forces lose their elite status.

TELL THAT TO THE MARINES ON GUADALCANAL...

sven · Post by **sven** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 5:34 am

Originally posted by 5thRecon:

Originally posted by sven:
[QB]After some reflection I have decided that I was wrong about the Germans having too many elites. I am asking that all US and USMC forces lose their elite status.

TELL THAT TO THE MARINES ON GUADALCANAL...
Recon...

Read it again. If you still don't get it e-mail me and I will explain it to you...

it is not what you think.

really,
sven

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Sat Jun 16, 2001 10:56 pm

I think the term 'elite' is abused too much. No one in WW2 came out of training (no matter what kind)'elite'. The germans had better training than most of the world early in the war, and this is reflected in the game by having a higher quality rating.
This whole elite thing is more of an altar upon which fanboys can worship the god of hype than anything relevant.

In a perfect world you would be able to spend more points on ANY unit and increase it's experience value, indicating levels of experience. That way you could buy a platoon of regular infantry that's seen hell twice over and make them veteran (or better). But, aside from specific units that had specific experience all the force quality issues in SPWAW are resolved by force quality itself.

Morale is a different (and not insignificant) issue altogether.
I kinda like the idea of 'fanatical' units who would have an increase in morale but not in skill or experience. This models much of the aparent enhanced performance of a lot of the famous unit 'types' out there. Those specific unit types that are 'better' than others like parachute infantry, SS, and reconnaisance units are cool for being different, but in the end it's what you do with them that really counts.

Tomo

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 10:20 am

I think the term "elite" would indicate forces that have been given specialized training (ie. paratroopers, mtn. infantry/Rangers/Commandos, amphibious troops/Marines/naval infantry)who also have specialized missions. The Waffen SS was considered as an elite force since besides their military status, they were also a politically indoctrinated force.
Semper Fi
Randy

sven · Post by **sven** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 11:49 am

Originally posted by Tombstone:
I think the term 'elite' is abused too much. No one in WW2 came out of training (no matter what kind)'elite'. The germans had better training than most of the world early in the war, and this is reflected in the game by having a higher quality rating.
This whole elite thing is more of an altar upon which fanboys can worship the god of hype than anything relevant.

In a perfect world you would be able to spend more points on ANY unit and increase it's experience value, indicating levels of experience. That way you could buy a platoon of regular infantry that's seen hell twice over and make them veteran (or better). But, aside from specific units that had specific experience all the force quality issues in SPWAW are resolved by force quality itself.

Morale is a different (and not insignificant) issue altogether.
I kinda like the idea of 'fanatical' units who would have an increase in morale but not in skill or experience. This models much of the aparent enhanced performance of a lot of the famous unit 'types' out there. Those specific unit types that are 'better' than others like parachute infantry, SS, and reconnaisance units are cool for being different, but in the end it's what you do with them that really counts.

Tomo

You are the closest To my real idea of elite. No army was totally elite.(except maybe finland(no sarcasm) I think certain people want to push balance in a cart over a cliff.

regards,
sven

p.s. Not accusing anyone in particular.

Mikimoto · Post by **Mikimoto** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:12 pm

Hello.
IMHO its difficult (or was?) to have elite divisions/brigades. Elite units of this size require months/years of training and fighting. And a good replacement system. But in game's scale, squads, platoons, companies and even batallions, thats another question. At this reduced scale, all countries had elites. Imagine a green division who has a core of veterans and NCOs/Officers. Sufficient to moun an elite company of recon/fussiliers an to provide every co/bon with a core of hard veterans (in game terms it means elite platoons or companies).

Richard Harris · Post by **Richard Harris** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 4:34 pm

LOL
Sven, you are too evil!

Richard Harris · Post by **Richard Harris** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 4:35 pm

LOL
Sven, you are too evil!
Remember though, only early war Russians should be considered elite. Later on they get rather worse or is it better????

Richard Harris · Post by **Richard Harris** » Sun Jun 17, 2001 4:37 pm

D'oh, double posted!
Guess that makes me elite too eh?

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Mon Jun 18, 2001 6:14 am

Status and political indoctrination do not make a unit elite. I'm assuming we can all agree that elite indicates an enhanced ability to perform well in combat. The word may have other connotations, but as far as SPWAW is concerned we should ignore them. In the game elite units are somehow more effective than others. So we have to go off of effect in combat. The best candidates that came out of the box (without battle experience) are units like the Fallshirmjaegers, and the US and British airborne. (Maybe the 1st SSF) The SS units had issues when they began their careers. They had to learn the hard way how war was waged. However, they were given good equipment and they weren't worked to unit disintegration. This provided them with experience... and where you see the SS at its best is in the first few SS Pz Divisions. I really think its because of the opportunities for experience that the first three SS PzDivs got. If anything, experience aside, SS units would wage war less intelligently than their heer counterparts. However, and this makes a big difference, the SS unit would have far better morale and courage (or foolhardiness). That would probably more than make up for the tactical mistakes, but there would be more casualties.

Things are often more complex than you want them to be.

Tomo

sven · Post by **sven** » Mon Jun 18, 2001 7:52 am

Originally posted by Tombstone:
Status and political indoctrination do not make a unit elite. I'm assuming we can all agree that elite indicates an enhanced ability to perform well in combat. The word may have other connotations, but as far as SPWAW is concerned we should ignore them. In the game elite units are somehow more effective than others. So we have to go off of effect in combat. The best candidates that came out of the box (without battle experience) are units like the Fallshirmjaegers, and the US and British airborne. (Maybe the 1st SSF) The SS units had issues when they began their careers. They had to learn the hard way how war was waged. However, they were given good equipment and they weren't worked to unit disintegration. This provided them with experience... and where you see the SS at its best is in the first few SS Pz Divisions. I really think its because of the opportunities for experience that the first three SS PzDivs got. If anything, experience aside, SS units would wage war less intelligently than their heer counterparts. However, and this makes a big difference, the SS unit would have far better morale and courage (or foolhardiness). That would probably more than make up for the tactical mistakes, but there would be more casualties.

Things are often more complex than you want them to be.

Tomo

Right on!

Political indoctrination does not make you super man. If poli indoc is used instead of training it makes you a highly motivated target for a pro troop. SS were brave amatuers compared to the exp. wehrmacht guys that went from poland to russia.....

accept it,
sven

[ June 17, 2001: Message edited by: sven ]

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Mon Jun 18, 2001 10:46 am

Tombstone, point well taken. I'll agree with that.
Semper Fi
Randy

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:35 am

would somebody explain to me how US Marines ( Which I thing should be elite) can be Elite ..and be thought to be elite based on there sucsessful amphibious assualts against IJN troops dug in on Islands ,already cut off and out of the generan support from their nation... While US Army Troops with large Victories in North Africa ect that are assualting Normansy are concidered idiot farm boys that can't march and chew gum but can sucessfully assualt Normandy .. Inflict greater casualities on dug in troops and force them to surrender in ever larger bunbers ... Not every Division in the US Army just the Amphibious Trained Assault Divisions that did the Amphibious assaults ..
Same nation same training invariabaly the same results against similar resistance .. why is one unquestionably elite and the other undoubtably green and raw ..
Please just explain this to me ...

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Mon Jun 18, 2001 9:54 pm

I don't think the marines were elite. I think they have to be considered as regulars with better morale. It wasnt the fact that our guys storming beaches were elite (aside from the rangers in a few cases). It was the determination and faith.

That's just my call tho. Maybe we should get into the differences between veteran and elite? Typically games use them as labels for increased effectiveness. Maybe that's not totally accurate.

Tomo

sven · Post by **sven** » Tue Jun 19, 2001 12:33 am

Originally posted by Tombstone:
I don't think the marines were elite. I think they have to be considered as regulars with better morale. It wasnt the fact that our guys storming beaches were elite (aside from the rangers in a few cases). It was the determination and faith.

That's just my call tho. Maybe we should get into the differences between veteran and elite? Typically games use them as labels for increased effectiveness. Maybe that's not totally accurate.

Tomo

I have always thought of elite as meaning the best soldiers that an oob had to offer. You could have a 500 post thread on what criterion that should entail. It would be nice if you could purchase extra exp., and morale for more money per unit.

still love the game,
sven