Reducing Fort Levels

[PeteG662]

Try this for yourself Nik playing Japanese vs Allied AI at Hong Kong. You have an Engineer Bde there that you can move into HK along with 38 Div and the Arty units. Put all on bombard and give the Eng Bde a deliberate attack. Even at 0 to 1 odds it can reduce the fortification level.

While this can be gamey it can also simulate the sappers clearing away the fortifications in preparation for the main attack under covering fire of the bombardments.

Pete

[Feinder]

Well, in that sort of case, I think the combat engineers should take some SERIOUS casualties. HK fort level is what? 6? Considering the investment of time and supplies, and I'm all for making it a bit harder and more dangerous to attack a heavily fortified position. Let's say you manage to build up Rabaul to a Level 9 fortification. That's tantamount to Maginot I would expect (max in game at least). If anything hits that Level 9 fort, it should take losses comiserate.

But if you can that you can reduce that Level 9 for to a bunch of sand in just a week of attacks by a single Btn of ENG...? Doesn't that seem peculiar? Id make it that you had to ad least achieve 2 - 1 odds (with all modifiers) in order to reduce the fort at all. That means if you decide to impale the little ENG Btn, it'll do exactly that. Die. You (should) need a coordinated attack to reduce the fortifications. You're going to suffer casualties, and you can't bring down 6000 determined defenders who have been digging in for 4 months, with just a Btn of engineers.

[PeteG662]

I understand your points and agree with you. I am just pointing out what is happening in my game. It was a Jap Eng BDE on the deliberate attack and yes it is a level 6 fort IIRC.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Try this for yourself Nik playing Japanese vs Allied AI at Hong Kong. You have an Engineer Bde there that you can move into HK along with 38 Div and the Arty units. Put all on bombard and give the Eng Bde a deliberate attack. Even at 0 to 1 odds it can reduce the fortification level.

I plan too.... [:(]

While this can be gamey it can also simulate the sappers clearing away the fortifications in preparation for the main attack under covering fire of the bombardments.

If this were a smaller scale tactical game where the players have more intricate control over how their forces fight and are deployed (within the area abstractly represented by the sixty mile hexes in WitP), i'd agree. At this scale.....looks like a big loophole that will devalue fort levels.

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Well, in that sort of case, I think the combat engineers should take some SERIOUS casualties. HK fort level is what? 6? Considering the investment of time and supplies, and I'm all for making it a bit harder and more dangerous to attack a heavily fortified position. Let's say you manage to build up Rabaul to a Level 9 fortification. That's tantamount to Maginot I would expect (max in game at least). If anything hits that Level 9 fort, it should take losses comiserate.

But if you can that you can reduce that Level 9 for to a bunch of sand in just a week of attacks by a single Btn of ENG...? Doesn't that seem peculiar? Id make it that you had to ad least achieve 2 - 1 odds (with all modifiers) in order to reduce the fort at all. That means if you decide to impale the little ENG Btn, it'll do exactly that. Die. You (should) need a coordinated attack to reduce the fortifications. You're going to suffer casualties, and you can't bring down 6000 determined defenders who have been digging in for 4 months, with just a Btn of engineers.

Well you are talking about a level 9 fort being a tough nut to crack.. That is true, but the true measure of a fort is not its defenses, but the men defending them.. If you have 2000 men defending a level 9 fort its not that great compared to 8000 men defending a level 8 fort... If you are defending with small numbers of men then the attacker will take heavy losses in the first wave, and then run right over you with a human wave attack..

A fort level should just add a multiplier to the attack value (basic modifer) and defense value (much bigger bonus) of the defending units thats it... AND it should only apply that to so many units (according to its size)... But right now I believe it applies its bonuses to ALL units in the base no matter what.. So I can have 300k men in a level 2 fort with no problems (unrealistic) and with all of them recieving the same benefits.

I think forts are fine.. I have seen them go quickly, but many times I attack with 2:1 or better odds against level 3-5 forts with 40,000+ men and never reduce the fort level. So I feel it is fine the way it is... Also, in real life naval, air and arty bombardments could destroy forts - that is its purpose - to demoralize the enemy and destroy its defensive fortifications before the troops attack.

Without seeing the exact way it works and knowing the exact bonuses for forts its hard to say whether it is appropriate either way...

Xargun

[freeboy]

seems my best bet is engeneirs for reduction

[byron13]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

ORIGINAL: Feinder


Hm. Just a thot.

Do RAF Base Forces (not HQs) help in an attack to reduce forts, like engineers do? (seeing as they are and ENG unit, and -do- eventually get supporting assault squads).
Not sure tho, anybody used them like that?

If so, you might airlift some of them into China. The RN Base Forces are too heavy, you'd end up leaving most of their guns behind. But the RAF Base Forces are lighter, and you could probably airlift most of the unit.

Marching would obviously take too long, but if you can air-tran them, you'd actually get them into theater. I end up with a few extra RAF BFs, so is perhaps using them as assault engineers an option? (esp since UK doesn't get very many assault engineers anyways).

Just wondering, haven't tried it.
-F-

I believe any unit with Engineers help to reduce the fort level - which is why divisions can sometimes reduce fort levels by themselves - they usually have 9 or 10 engineer squads with them.. But the more the merrier for this - bring those Eng Rgts that have like 40 eng squads to the battle - they have an assault point of around 35 and are good at killing forts as well as building them.

Xargun

I don't have the rules with me, but I was under the impression that only engineer squads could reduce fortifications. There is a distinction between engineers and engineer squads, or at least they're listed differently on unit totals on the units screen. Engineer regiments or battalions have squads, as do divisions. Aviation bases only have engineers. I thought the difference is that squads are combat engineers that have sapper capacity, while engineers are more rear-area REMF types with a couple of dozers, jackhammers, shovels, and the like. Under this theory, an aviation base forces could NOT reduce a fortification.

Am I wrong?

[Graycompany]

according to page 141 rule 8.1.3 "Combat engineer units differ from regular engineer units in that they have an extra name added to their name (e.g. IJA Engineer Squad). Combat Engineers can also destroy enemy fortifications during combat."

[scout1]

seems my best bet is engeneirs for reduction ...

Matthew,

Engineers are always a good bet [:D]