CV TF - Ideal Mix of Ships

[dtravel]

Hey! Ron?!



Play nice, stay on topic.

[Ron Saueracker]

I don't give up easy, do I?[:D]

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

I don't have a great answer for you, since I am still playing with it. However, here are some things to think about. All of my analysis comes from the perspective of Japan, so don't automatically apply these thoughts to the Allies.

One task force or multiple?

When a strike is launched by carriers it can only hit one target (task force), but CAP and strikes from all the ships in a hex generally combine. Therefore, it is beneficial for carriers to be split up into multiple TF's.

However, escorts from one TF do not protect other task forces from submarines. Therefore, you have to balance the need for strong ASW assets with the need to diversify your risk to your carriers.

Their is also a rule associated with TF coordination for carriers. The maximum number of planes that can be in a strike are determined by a formula. For Japan iirc, the number is 200 + rnd(100) which means 200 planes plus a random number between 1 and 100. For the Allies, the number is different. I think it is 100 + rnd(100) to start, but gets bigger as the war years progress. So, you want to look that rule up and make sure you don't end up with aircraft not utilized because they exceed that limit.

Finally, seperate TF's all have their own commander - which means that you are going to have lesser men in command the more you split into TF's. You have about 4 high quality Air Combat TF commanders at the start as Japan (nagumo, Uamaguchi, Abe, and another I can;t recall the name of atm). The effect of different commanders this is two-fold. The ships and aircraft in the TF of the lesser commander will not perform as well as if they were under the better commander. Also, the TF's will react to enemy differently, so your TF could end up in different hexes leaving your TF's with sharply reduced CAP.

How I use my ships as Japan:
CV - air combat TF's
CVL - air combet TF with CV's
CVE - the speed on these guys relegates them to escort duties. I use them to escort transport and invasion TF's in areas where Allied planes could attack.
CS - Chiyoda and Chitose go into my ACTF's after I load them up with range 7 Alfs on Naval Search. Mizuho and Nisshin go into oil convoys with aircraft on ASW.
BB - the fast two go into CV TF's, the rest are SAG/bombardment groups.
CA - these go into ACTF's, invasion TF's and SAG/Bombardment TF's. CA's seem to be the best ship for sending in with the AP's because they can counterbattery without getting sunk like a DD or CL. They also have high AA and high speed, so they go into ACTF's. .
CL - Kitakami and Oi go into ACTF's, the rest go into FT TF's and invasion TF's. I will also use them in transport TF's if they have a float plane.
DD - Really depends upon the class: Mutsuki - ACTF, Tomodzuru - FT, Yugumo - ACTF, Asashio - ACTF, Kagero - ACTF and SAG's, Shimakaze - SAG, Ootori - FT, Shiratsuyu - SAG, Akatsuki - SAG, Hatsuharu - transport escort, Fubuki - transport escort, Minekaze - FT, Kamikaze - FT (ACTF after refit), Wakatake - FT, Momi - FT.
APD - TK escorts. High AA and 10 DC racks on each of em.
PG - long range transport TF escorts leavened with MSW's and a few DD's
PC - short range transport TF escorts and ASW hunter-killer groups. Leavened by a few DD's and some MSW's.
MSW (W.1 through W.20) - Tanker escorts
MSW (all others) - escorts for all types of transport TF's.

What to put in ACTF's?
For each ship in a TF over 15, you get diminishing returns from AA. So, having more than 15 ships in a TF means the extra ships will be less protected. You should not take that to mean never have more than 15 in a TF, just understand that you will get less effect from each ship you add over 15. I put CV, CVL, CS, BB, some CA, DD, and CL(Kitakami and Oi) into Air Combat TF's. For CL's, Kitakami and Oi have radar in early 42.

1. If you have one CV in a taskforce, it will most likely be the target. If you have BB's, CS's, CVL's in the TF with a CV, the attack is likely to split up a bit and try to hit the other ships. The good news is that means less likely hits on your CV. The bad news is that the other ships might get hit. Since I would rather lose anything else to save a carrier, I generally leaven my TF's with other high priority targets.

2. A priority for AC TF's is to have high AA ships in the mix. Generally, the bigger the ship, the better the AA, so fast BB's get put into my CV TF's. I may put a couple CA's in there too because they are good AA platforms, but generally I reserve those guys for invasion TF's. They can safely take fire from most CD units while simultaneously taking the heat off AP's, etc.

3. Another priority is ASW forces. ASW TF's get really effective when they are up around 8 ships and get downright deadly at 15 in my experience so far. I would try to have as many DD's for ASW as I could.

4. Check the speed of the ships you want to put in your TF's. If they can't keep pace with your carriers, they should not be in the TF.

5. You want a minimum of one radar equipped ship in each ACTF. Until mid 42, the only ships that have it are Kitakami and Oi, so I generally place all my CV's into a max of two task forces until mid '42.

6. Pay attention to the endurance of your DD's when choosing escorts. The Tomodzuru class DD looks like a great CV escort because of it's 73 AA rating. However, their endurance of 3000 makes them a drag on the rest of the TF.

Why would you get diminishing returns for AA for TFs over 15 ships? Is some assumption being made that all ships can't be firing at an incoming raid? How novel! I wonder why all ASW ships get a crack at a sub?[8D]

quite agree here. this would seem to be the only fix.

[freeboy]

mychoice would be something along the range of a cvn loaded with Tomcats and Intruders

[grumpyman]

Say I put my carriers in multiple TFs.  One CV per TF.  How do I set my fighters for the best balance of CAP for CV vs. escorts for bombers? 

[dtravel]

  Its a zombie thread!!!!
 
 
[:'(]  Depends on how worried you are about the other guy's planes.  I believe that most players put the CAP level at 50 to 70%, with possibly wider ranges used in more unusual circumstances.

[ny59giants]

We have a house rule in my PBEM of 50% CAP. This is to try to prevent the "Uber-CAP" and allow some bombers to get through. [;)]

If not a House Rule on CAP percentage, then there may one on max number of planes or CV/CVL/CVE's allowed per hex.
If your the Japanese, don't spilt up KB (you may move CV's in and out).
If your the Allies, keep them in single CV TF through most of '42 (about 15 ships max).

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: grumpyman

Say I put my carriers in multiple TFs.  One CV per TF.  How do I set my fighters for the best balance of CAP for CV vs. escorts for bombers? 

My usual rating for a battle against equal or inferior CV forces is CAP 60%, escort 40% and attack AC limited to useful range (able to use torpedoes, dive-bombers limited to same range).

I try to avoid battle against superior CV forces....

[Rafael Warsaw]

IJN:
Akagi
Kaga
Hosho OR one of CVL with 27 Fighters AG. Its Slower, running 4:2 vs 5:3 CVs but it provides additional Cap cover. Not to mention that speed of 4 is enough to chase every allied convoy (max spd 3).
CA Chikuma (5 float planes)
1-2 Kongo BBs

Shokaku
Zuikaku
Shoho or CVL with fighters as above
CA Tone (5 float planes)
1-2 Kongo BBs

All 4:2 walkers like Junyo - together. You can group them all in one TF. Nr of planes will still be below 200.

It is hard to max ASW as IJN DDs have unsufficient endurance for deep ocean rides so I do concentrate on two issues:
AA and number of float planes.
No more than 15 ships (which is hard to achive. IJN is pretty spread out all the time).

Replace Vals for Kates if You do not expect E carriers. Much more efficient in sinking.

CS:
Never Ever take a risk with Chiyoda and her sister. Both will upgrade into a carrier by the end of 42.
Replace FPs for FFs. Use as an additional protection for STFs, BTFs or invasions. One note: IJN FFs are pretty useless in BIGB mod. so do not expect miracles.

USN:
Early War:

1 CV per TF.
Remove TB AG for F one.

Max out AA.
ASW is not that important.

Tactics:

RIDE! Do You remember my ride on Nomunea? I have lost less than 10 pilots for 2 US Fat CVs. Nice trade off right?
In 2 day turns Your Fast Carrier CVs Shokaku and Zuikaku can move up to 18 (!!!!) hexes plus the range of an Air strike which is 5 hexes for best effect. Its a really long arm of 24-24 hexes. Its a lot! Its way beyond US search plane range.

Group them 17-18 hexes from target, set them at retire, full speed, do not react. Move them to 5-6 hexes from Your target. They will be able to run away after strike.

Cheers!

[captskillet]

For the Allies up to the point in the war when your air coord penalty for a CV TF goes up to 200+ planes (43 or 44 cant remember) I use this config:

1 CV
1 CA
2 CL or 1 CL & 1 CLAA
8 DD

After the 200 plane limit kicks in I go same as above but put 2 CV's in TF..........when the 250 plane limit hits I'll add a CVL, up till then I normally use them and the CVE's for landing and transport TF air cover/support.....except for the CVE's that have your replenishment squadrons..........put them with your AO's (and if its 45 AE's) in replenishment TF's to keep your CV's with replacement planes/aircrews as well as fuel/bombs (as well as fueling/arming other ships).

[Feinder]

And your choice of DDs should be those with the best endurace (7000+ and the 8000 are golden).  With any less endurance, you stunt your over-all speed because you have to keep re-fueling your escorts.
 
-F-

[castor troy]

holy crap, this thread is 2,5 years old. Who dug that one out? [:D]

[Grotius]

I have a related question. Is it generally advisable to put one's three IJN CV "divisions" into one hex, with one TF following the other two? I guess some players have house rules that prohibit this practice, or maybe prohibit it after the Pearl Harbor strike?

[Feinder]

"Stacking" your CVs means that your CAP from all your TFs in the hex, will intercept.
 
-F-

[KDonovan]

i like to avoid BB's in CV TF's, as i need all the BB's i can get for shore bombardments.....

so my TF's (in all years)...look like this

CV/CVLs
2 CA's
2 CL's
2 CLAA's
enough DD's to get me above 60 ASW value

[ctangus]

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

i like to avoid BB's in CV TF's, as i need all the BB's i can get for shore bombardments.....

so my TF's (in all years)...look like this

CV/CVLs
2 CA's
2 CL's
2 CLAA's
enough DD's to get me above 60 ASW value

But you've largely gotten rid of the threat of KB. I'm not so fortunate! [:D] I want as much AA as I can get if there's any chance of running into enemy carriers. Depending on availability I add 1-2 fast BBs to each CV TF. TF 38/58 also sails with a surface combat TF, under a good Admiral (Lee if he's not dead) composed of 2-3 CLs and a division or two (4-8) DDs.

It gives me better AA for my CV TFs while I can still transfer battleships into TF 34 if there's a need for a bombardment or surface action is likely.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

i like to avoid BB's in CV TF's, as i need all the BB's i can get for shore bombardments.....

so my TF's (in all years)...look like this

CV/CVLs
2 CA's
2 CL's
2 CLAA's
enough DD's to get me above 60 ASW value

Unfortunately it has been shown and confirmed, that in the game, BB in CVTF attracts significant bomber attacks away from the CV/L and hence is almost mandatory ITG (in the game).

Also 1 CV/L in TF with many TF all stacked in one hex allows all AC still to join up to hit enemy TF (thus bypassing the Allied CV strike restriction) .. biggest trade off is there are not enough escorts to maximize flak for all TF if only 1 CV/L in each.

So, ITG fundamental tactical decision is how many CV/L per TF ... and I also assume 1 BB per TF ...

If you have enough flak to defeat the attack the smaller number of larger TFs are better, but otherwise larger number of smaller TFs are better. Also depends on possible opposition. If facing main enemy CV force then CV/ TF size of under about 12 is not recommended. Size 25 is ideal, but not always possible, especially for IJN.

All this is based on my experience anyway.

[Halsey]

I never ever place more CV/CVL's in a TF that places it over the coordination roll.

Hence, the worst I've ever had in a CV vs CV action is a draw.[;)]

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

I never ever place more CV/CVL's in a TF that places it over the coordination roll.

Hence, the worst I've ever had in a CV vs CV action is a draw.[;)]

I have always faithfully followed statement number 1. Unfortunately, in my experience, statement number 2 has not always faithfully followed statement 1.

[Halsey]

You still have to play smart.
It is the prerequisite for number 2 happening.[:D]