Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

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byron13
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by byron13 »

ORIGINAL: dtravel
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I haven't seen 4E bombers be the best at attacking ships at sea. In port, yes, they are pretty good (especially at lower altitudes) due to the quantity of bombs they carry. 1.40 reduced the effectiveness somewhat but as you can see in another thread there's still a lot of analysis and discussion going on.

Regards,

- Erik

Link to the thread Erik is referring to --> Analysis of port bombing attacks

This is exactly the same issue as in the other thread, and I concur that the hit rate - even in ports - is waaaaay to high.

By the way, 100 yards separation between bombs does not sound right to me, nor do I see how altitude affects separation. I assume the trajectory of each bomb should be, for all relevant purposes, identical when measured from each bomb's release point. Thus, I would think that separation at the point of impact would be the same as at the point of release, i.e, the distance the plane flew between the time it released any two bombs in question. I would also expect that the bomb separation would be the same (notwithstanding factors such as wind) whether the bomber was at 50 feet at release or 50,000 feet. Without being a mathematician or physician (one who studies physics in this case ala Physiker in German), if the separation increases with altitude, then either the second bomb is falling slower (permitting it to travel further from its release point than the first bomb) or is moving forward faster (permitting it to travel further from its release point than the first bomb). Neither makes sense to me.
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von Murrin
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by von Murrin »

ORIGINAL: LittleJoe
ORIGINAL: von Murrin

In my experience, G4M's haven't done all that bad from 15000 feet either. I won't use them at extended ranges, so it only happens to me. It's annoying.


Cant say i agree, Betties seem pretty rubbish with Bomb loads, they have trouble hitting airfields at plus 10,000 feet, let alone a moving ap. Whenever i airfield/port attack i put them at 8,000 feet or somthing.

I've had Betties sink at least 5 AK's from 12,000-15,000 feet in my current Allied game. All it takes is one hit to slow the target down and the others start scoring.
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LittleJoe
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by LittleJoe »

With bombs [X(]

If so that proves how wrong this level bomber accuracy is considering the lower bomb load of the betty.
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DrewMatrix
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by DrewMatrix »

All it takes is one hit to slow the target down and the others start scoring.

Is that why it works out wierd?

I send 12 A/C at your ship, but the computer resolves the combat one A/C (or group of 3-4) at a time, not as "12 A/C attack". So if the first one gets a lucky hit the ship slows instantly giving the second plane better odds etc.

What would really happen in "an attack"? The attack wouldn't be simultaneous (maybe taking a few minutes) but the ship wouldn't instantly change speed either with some engine damage.

Maybe "ship goes slower because it took a hit" should only be checked for every different tactical battle, not for every plane or 4 plane group (ie if my 12 A/C find you and get 2 hits while you are going normal speed both those hits were against you at "normal speed". But then if a different group of 15 A/C locate you later that same turn, only then are you slowed and more vulnerable.
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freeboy
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by freeboy »

It does make this an interesting game when we are able to get real hits wit hlevel bombers... my 17's where kicking ass every turn for several weeks.. until they needed to run away at Singapore..
and all those beatiful jap planes and their torp.. well when I'm the jap they are beauties!
and I just lost 3 Brit older BB's due to my incompetenct, see aar," history repeats..." when they attempted to bombard without air cover, they where spanked by combination kates and betties...
but I degress, back to those points about b17's... remember fow, not always do the reports even come close to being accurate!, like when they say you are flying 12 planes and you have 45 destroyed!
[:-]
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Zorfwaddle
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by Zorfwaddle »

Perhaps they had heard of Major Kong
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pasternakski
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by pasternakski »

That's "harelips," George. Yee-HAW!

For those who can remember the debate that went on way back in the UV development days, the decision was made that level bombers should be effective (although not maybe this effective) against ships disbanded in port to discourage players from "holing up" within range of enemy LBA. I don't know what solution is going to be acceptable to everyone, but I say this: ever since 75 percent of the leader leak was dried up, most of the WitP forum has been devoted to threads advocating this or that design change. Rework land combat. Build in new UI features. And so on.

It's too late for that. If a tweak or a fiddle is necessary here or there to avoid aberrant results, I'm all for it. Beyond that, I see it as a closed book. The more you screw around with it, the weirder it's going to get.

So, let's leave it alone, go have a nice grain alcohol and rain water, and preserve our precious bodily fluids.
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Hornblower
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by Hornblower »

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

That's "harelips," George. Yee-HAW!

For those who can remember the debate that went on way back in the UV development days, the decision was made that level bombers should be effective (although not maybe this effective) against ships disbanded in port to discourage players from "holing up" within range of enemy LBA. I don't know what solution is going to be acceptable to everyone, but I say this: ever since 75 percent of the leader leak was dried up, most of the WitP forum has been devoted to threads advocating this or that design change. Rework land combat. Build in new UI features. And so on.

It's too late for that. If a tweak or a fiddle is necessary here or there to avoid aberrant results, I'm all for it. Beyond that, I see it as a closed book. The more you screw around with it, the weirder it's going to get.

So, let's leave it alone, go have a nice grain alcohol and rain water, and preserve our precious bodily fluids.

grain and tonic, not rain water......
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The Gnome
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by The Gnome »

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Anybody remember "B-17 Bomber" on on Intellivision?

The thing would intro with "Bee-17 Baum-er!" Sounded like the guy was from West Texas...

[:)]
-F-
OMG great game! I could play that for hours on end as a kid!
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Hornblower
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by Hornblower »

no Intellivision for me- couldn't afford it.. [:(] i was a avalon hill board game guy....
Sonny
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by Sonny »

There is another problem with 4 engine level bombers aside from their accuracy on naval attacks - the fact that they get to fly naval attacks twice in a turn. Include that with their accuracy on naval attacks and you have an uber weapon. 21 B-17s flying from Darwin to Kendari (range 13) twice in a day AND getting at least one bomb hit each time on destroyers. When you add to all the the fact that heavy bombers now repair faster with 1.40, well what can I say?[:-]
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cyberwop36
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by cyberwop36 »

ORIGINAL: velkro

Yes, those 2E long-range torpedo bombers suck. I'm continually seeing groups of 3 to 5 Bettys and Nells come in vs. 15 CAP fighters and get at least 1-2 hits on my ships every time. It seems possible, but almost every time defies explanation...

Here! Here! Not only that they can fly directly thru CAP in other hexes to streach that mileage further. They have so much range you can't even tell where they are coming from.

Remember that bit from the manual [and the UV manual too] about an airstrikes possible being intercepted by any enemy CAP that it might fly thru on the way too or from target. Has anyone ever seen that happen. To be fair though that was probably too hard to program.
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2ndACR
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by 2ndACR »

I do not see what would be hard to code about it. GG did the same thing in BTR. Heck in BTR, you could get jumped from just about anywhere.
cyberwop36
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by cyberwop36 »

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I do not see what would be hard to code about it. GG did the same thing in BTR. Heck in BTR, you could get jumped from just about anywhere.

BUT.... In all the time we played UV and the several month of WITP have you EVER seen a inroute non target area CAP intercept a airstrike? We've all seen thousands of air attacks by now and I've never seen a in route intercept.
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mlees
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by mlees »

I have seen it, and set it up with "LRCAP", but not with fighters on "escort".
Mike Scholl
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Sonny

There is another problem with 4 engine level bombers aside from their accuracy on naval attacks - the fact that they get to fly naval attacks twice in a turn. Include that with their accuracy on naval attacks and you have an uber weapon. 21 B-17s flying from Darwin to Kendari (range 13) twice in a day AND getting at least one bomb hit each time on destroyers. When you add to all the the fact that heavy bombers now repair faster with 1.40, well what can I say?[:-]

You have a legitimate point, but why are you limiting it to 4-engined bombers (the allies)
Any WWII aircraft/crew that's flown a mission of more than 250 miles (out and back) is
pretty much finished for the day. The controlling factor should be hexes flown, not the
number of engines. Unless you are just a "Japanese Fan-boy" looking to hamper the
Allies, you should be complaining about virtually ANY BOMBER flying more than one
mission a day. It happen several times in close-support situations, or when the Cactus
Air Force was bombing a convoy 50 miles away, but not in normal operations.
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pasternakski
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by pasternakski »

You often see Betty fly 1,200 miles, torpedo some ships, fly home, fly back again and torpedo some more ships, then go home - 4,800 miles and two attacks in the same day.

Why all the caterwauling about how unfair Allied heavy bomber performance is?
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BlackVoid
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by BlackVoid »

CAP intercept should happen on the route. It is NOT hard at all to program it. I know because I am working on a hex based game.

The other big omission in the game is mid-ocean intercepts. Maybe because it was not done in the pacific by either side much. Surface groups should be able to intercept (react to) any enemy group that their search planes/subs detect. Convoy raiding (think Atlantic) would spell doom for the side who cannot put aircraft and strong surface forces in an area. The security in the southern supply line to Oz lies in all the islands scattered on the way. In real life, Lunga in japanese hands already threatened this supply line somewhat. Think about all the raiders that japan could have sent out with having New Caledonia as their base.

In the game only carriers are capable of raiding supply convoys. The southern supply route is not that dangeous for the allied player.

Before someone mentions, that there is still a lot ocean down south: look up the weather in that region. And the risks involved, when all the nearest ports are hostile with no cover or place to run whatsoever.
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pasternakski
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by pasternakski »

You know, void, your posts are always remarkable for being void of sense. This one, in particular, leaves me wondering not only what you intended to say, but whether you even intended to say it.

Could we have some carefully considered prose, please?
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And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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witpqs
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RE: Allied 4E bombers best ship killers

Post by witpqs »

Mid-ocean intercepts, including reaction to sightings made during the search phase, would be a good thing.
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