I really want somebody to take you up on this Moses. I'm an allied player tho, and don't think I could give you a reasonable game as IJA. I don't think "all is lost" for China, I just think it's really, really, REALLY tough to play (as China).
In my own PBEM games, in my game vs. U2, I'm doing far better in China than I am vs. Kurt/Parker. But I've also got about 4x the amount of airlift (hindsite is a wonderful thing). Frankly, it's -way- beyond anything that is allowed in your house-rules. But I'm also playing without with the prep-point bonus (started at zero baby!).
I do think your house rules are "relatively fair". I don't think any of them really limit the situation in China for IJA, to create a scenario that that far off of any other PBEM game. So again, I'm really curious to see what sort of situation developes.
To go all the way with this idea, a China only scenario would be nice too.
Make sure you put something in the AAR formus, and label it "Chin Only" (or something like), so that folks will be sure to see what it is (as opposed to the um-teenth Scen #15).
Regards,
-F-
China only game
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: China only game
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me
RE: China only game
Unfortunately (or not) most people are too impatient to watch the Land-Combat replay, or have the default speed, which is way to fast to read...
It's IMPERATIVE to watch land battles (that you actually care about) actually execute. It sucks that you have sit thru A-bombards, B-bombards, C-bombards, D-bombards, A-attacks, B-attacks... esp when there are 20 armies involved in the attack. But the part that says...
Attacker attacks at 1-1...
Attacking force 1025 modified to 568...
Defending force 324 modified to 432...
Blah, blah, blah...
The number you see when you click on the hex when you're moving stuff, is usually fairly close to the UNADJUSTED number. It might include things like fatigue, disruption, etc. but the real number that is used, is that second adjusted number. It can vary a LOT. But that 2nd number is including things like leader shifts, terrain modifiers, supply and fort modifiers.
You can see in the example above, the attacker thinks his assault strenght is 1025ish. But he's really only attacking at 400-something. Without watching the replay, he thinks he's got a lot more punch than he really does.
It's important to see how close the number displayed in the main screen is, to the adjusted one in the combat panals. Is it a lot higher (you're taking major neg mods)? Maybe replace a leader? Is it a lot lower (you're getting terrain bonuses maybe)? Either way, it's important to know how your troops are really doing. That 800 assault strength displayed when you click on a unit, is very likely VERY different than what is in actual execution. If you know that, for whatever reasons, that you're defending at 2/3 of your displayed assault strength, that's what you really need to know.
Maybe you got attacked, and the odds were 0-1. You noticed the adjusted strengths were 234 - 1800 (even tho your unadjusted assault strenght only shows 300). If he attacks you again, with roughly the same situation (and loses again obviously), you know he's not reading the replays. If he was reading the replays, he'd know he doesn't have nearly enough troops. Just let him impale himself.
Again, WATCH THE REPLAYS (if it's a land battle that's important).
Regards,
-F-
It's IMPERATIVE to watch land battles (that you actually care about) actually execute. It sucks that you have sit thru A-bombards, B-bombards, C-bombards, D-bombards, A-attacks, B-attacks... esp when there are 20 armies involved in the attack. But the part that says...
Attacker attacks at 1-1...
Attacking force 1025 modified to 568...
Defending force 324 modified to 432...
Blah, blah, blah...
The number you see when you click on the hex when you're moving stuff, is usually fairly close to the UNADJUSTED number. It might include things like fatigue, disruption, etc. but the real number that is used, is that second adjusted number. It can vary a LOT. But that 2nd number is including things like leader shifts, terrain modifiers, supply and fort modifiers.
You can see in the example above, the attacker thinks his assault strenght is 1025ish. But he's really only attacking at 400-something. Without watching the replay, he thinks he's got a lot more punch than he really does.
It's important to see how close the number displayed in the main screen is, to the adjusted one in the combat panals. Is it a lot higher (you're taking major neg mods)? Maybe replace a leader? Is it a lot lower (you're getting terrain bonuses maybe)? Either way, it's important to know how your troops are really doing. That 800 assault strength displayed when you click on a unit, is very likely VERY different than what is in actual execution. If you know that, for whatever reasons, that you're defending at 2/3 of your displayed assault strength, that's what you really need to know.
Maybe you got attacked, and the odds were 0-1. You noticed the adjusted strengths were 234 - 1800 (even tho your unadjusted assault strenght only shows 300). If he attacks you again, with roughly the same situation (and loses again obviously), you know he's not reading the replays. If he was reading the replays, he'd know he doesn't have nearly enough troops. Just let him impale himself.
Again, WATCH THE REPLAYS (if it's a land battle that's important).
Regards,
-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me
RE: China only game
I think the house rules are fair and in fact are slightly favorable to Japan.
The goal is to simulate a full game. So it is not allowed for China to bring in the whole allied air force to fly in supplies. It is also not allowed for Japan to transfer 4 or 5 zero and 4 or 5 betty squadrens since these would normally be needed elsewhere. The Burma road is cut at, as best I can tell from AAR's, around the time that it would fall in most PBEM games.
Its actually a fun scenario once you get going because you can do a turn in about 15 minutes and even with a full time job I've gotten as far as March in about a month with WITP_Dude. This with one day turns.
The goal is to simulate a full game. So it is not allowed for China to bring in the whole allied air force to fly in supplies. It is also not allowed for Japan to transfer 4 or 5 zero and 4 or 5 betty squadrens since these would normally be needed elsewhere. The Burma road is cut at, as best I can tell from AAR's, around the time that it would fall in most PBEM games.
Its actually a fun scenario once you get going because you can do a turn in about 15 minutes and even with a full time job I've gotten as far as March in about a month with WITP_Dude. This with one day turns.
RE: China only game
...it is not allowed for China to bring in the whole allied air force to fly in supplies.
(* whistles softly *)
[8|]
Nope. I'd never do that. Definately not.
-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me
RE: China only game
You are allowed to send all transports however so you can do quite a lot of air resupply once you tranfer evrything to Burma. You just can't use B-17's etc which in a full game have obviously better uses.
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AmiralLaurent
- Posts: 3351
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:53 pm
- Location: Near Paris, France
RE: China only game
Hi Moses,
as I said somewhere else, I have currently no more Net connection outside work, but as soon as I will be fully installed in my new flat, I will try this.
I currently played a China only game (as Allied) against AI. It is becoming ridiculous. Chinese troops are invading Indochina, have taken Hanoi and are besieging Haipong (just to surround the 21st IJA Div and 2 Vietnamese Div here) and driving to Hue but also to Thailand. I also took Nanning, Pakhoi, Tiensing, TsingTao and the port south of it. I retook Kaifeng and Japanese troops came from Wuhan to retake it but 7 Chinese corps were allready driving south to find almost empty bases.
It's the same thing if you play Japan against AI. It is not able to react to your moves.
On the other hand, I let the AI drive all other areas. The world is full of submarines and ships without fuel and torpedoes, or of empty transports sailing from San Francisco to pick 1000 supplies or 20 men in a remote DEI location. I also like a lot the AI attemps to send more supplies to the undefended bases of Northern new Guinea. Problem is that the direct path from US to NG is sailing just some hexes out of the Japanese base of Kwajalein. Betties/Nells based here sank 2-3 ships a week, in fact all ships sent this way.
as I said somewhere else, I have currently no more Net connection outside work, but as soon as I will be fully installed in my new flat, I will try this.
I currently played a China only game (as Allied) against AI. It is becoming ridiculous. Chinese troops are invading Indochina, have taken Hanoi and are besieging Haipong (just to surround the 21st IJA Div and 2 Vietnamese Div here) and driving to Hue but also to Thailand. I also took Nanning, Pakhoi, Tiensing, TsingTao and the port south of it. I retook Kaifeng and Japanese troops came from Wuhan to retake it but 7 Chinese corps were allready driving south to find almost empty bases.
It's the same thing if you play Japan against AI. It is not able to react to your moves.
On the other hand, I let the AI drive all other areas. The world is full of submarines and ships without fuel and torpedoes, or of empty transports sailing from San Francisco to pick 1000 supplies or 20 men in a remote DEI location. I also like a lot the AI attemps to send more supplies to the undefended bases of Northern new Guinea. Problem is that the direct path from US to NG is sailing just some hexes out of the Japanese base of Kwajalein. Betties/Nells based here sank 2-3 ships a week, in fact all ships sent this way.
RE: China only game
OK, I'll play you as soon as you get connected. Any idea when??
Challenge is still open to anyone else as it doesn't take any time at all to do these turns.
I think against the AI this theater is better just left alone. The AI has no chance playing either side.
If you are in France things may be a little slow unless you are one of those who likes to stay up late. On weekdays my prime time for getting off multiple turns is between 4 and 9 central. For you I guess thats 10PM to 3 AM.
Challenge is still open to anyone else as it doesn't take any time at all to do these turns.
I think against the AI this theater is better just left alone. The AI has no chance playing either side.
If you are in France things may be a little slow unless you are one of those who likes to stay up late. On weekdays my prime time for getting off multiple turns is between 4 and 9 central. For you I guess thats 10PM to 3 AM.
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AmiralLaurent
- Posts: 3351
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:53 pm
- Location: Near Paris, France
RE: China only game
Well, I have played PBEM (WITP but mostly UV, as I started to change places this summer and have not played PBEM since that date) will people from Europe, Australia and USA. I usually did 1-3 turns a day with all of them. I'm playing in the evening (until midnight, one o'clock) and then a turn before leaving for work in the morning.
So usually for my US opponents, they did a turn when going home in the evening, I replied shortly later, they sent back, I usually answer this one or I will answer on my morning, when they sleep, and they will have it on the morning or the next evening.
As for US people, I played against people of Maine, California and don't remember where in the center of the country.
As this China game will be mostly ground combat with some air support, it could also be very possible to do multiple-day turns if you're OK with it. This is really disapointing with the naval warfare but should change few things on land warfare, except slowing down Blitzkrieg offensive.
On the sidenote, I'm not a quitter type. Even if I couldn't play for 6 months, I still exchanged with my former opponents and should finish a UV game currently in October 1943, where I (as Japanese) can only try to slow the Allied juggernaut. But it will be interesting to finish the game and any tactical victory is rejoicing in this context (and is usually followed by a string of defeats). I will restart a WITP PBEM (full map) with one of my former opponents (at least).
So usually for my US opponents, they did a turn when going home in the evening, I replied shortly later, they sent back, I usually answer this one or I will answer on my morning, when they sleep, and they will have it on the morning or the next evening.
As for US people, I played against people of Maine, California and don't remember where in the center of the country.
As this China game will be mostly ground combat with some air support, it could also be very possible to do multiple-day turns if you're OK with it. This is really disapointing with the naval warfare but should change few things on land warfare, except slowing down Blitzkrieg offensive.
On the sidenote, I'm not a quitter type. Even if I couldn't play for 6 months, I still exchanged with my former opponents and should finish a UV game currently in October 1943, where I (as Japanese) can only try to slow the Allied juggernaut. But it will be interesting to finish the game and any tactical victory is rejoicing in this context (and is usually followed by a string of defeats). I will restart a WITP PBEM (full map) with one of my former opponents (at least).
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AmiralLaurent
- Posts: 3351
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:53 pm
- Location: Near Paris, France
RE: China only game
ORIGINAL: moses
Rules: one day turns
Japan can:
1.) Bring in 49,000 supplies each month by sea at Shanghie.
2.) Transfer in one group of Zero's and a group of Sally's.
3.) Can keep a BB and a couples CA's on hand for sea bombardment of coastal Chinese towns
4.) Can tranfer a small SNLF to Pokhoi on south coast of China in order to meet garrison requirements.
5.) Can transfer Kwatang area armies to China but must transfer them to China command using PP's and must insure that Russia has a garrison sufficient to prevent activation.
6.) Cannot transfer forces from other commands to either China or Russia except as in item 4 and 5 above.
7.) The 38th Div assigned to southern area command can only be used to take Hong Kong. After this point it should either be evacuated or can be used to garrison HK.
8.) Will be allowed to take Palambang without opposition in order to maintain oil stockpiles.
9.) Will be allowed to march into Burma without opposition beginning 1 March in order to cut Burma road.
China:
1.) Can transfer AVG and Chinese AF units between China, Burma, and India air base as desired.
2.) Can use any transport aircraft and any Chinese air unit on air supply missions. Non-Chinese units (ie. B-17's etc may not be used for this purpose) . C-47's etc may be transfered to Burma/India for this purpose.
3.) Cannot transfer any non-China command air or ground unit into theater other then the AVG and cannot change units to China command other than AVG.
Over the holidays I will be able to crank out turns fairly rapidly. Once school begins again I can still knock out several of these short turns daily most days.
Seems OK to me except
Japanese point 2 : Zeroes are better used elsewhere. Only after AVG has been used may a Zero unit be brought to China Command. You will probably use AVG quickly anyway.
Japanese point 5 : does it apply to China Command unit starting in Manchuria (the Mongolian Cavalry Divisions) ?
Japanese point 7 : will change it to : can use the 38th Div until 1st January 1942, then should sail it out of China.
Chinese point 3 : you should be able to transfer all Southeast Asia Chinese DIV back to China Command.
As for the connection date, it is in one week (minimum) or two (theorical maximum, hmmmm...) starting from two days ago.
RE: China only game
point 2: OK and I will.
point 5: All china command including mongol units can move to China. Watch out for soviet activation. There is a Kwangtang unit in Korea that can be moved north which gives you a few more AV in Russia.
point 7: OK. I just assume that the purpose of that division is to take HK and after that time its participation ends.
point 3: OK.
I'll send you a message with my e-mail when I am at home.
point 5: All china command including mongol units can move to China. Watch out for soviet activation. There is a Kwangtang unit in Korea that can be moved north which gives you a few more AV in Russia.
point 7: OK. I just assume that the purpose of that division is to take HK and after that time its participation ends.
point 3: OK.
I'll send you a message with my e-mail when I am at home.
RE: China only game
Good Luck!
Post those AARs! I want to see how this plays out! Thanks for trying it.
-F-
Post those AARs! I want to see how this plays out! Thanks for trying it.
-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me
RE: China only game
The Admiral seems to be good player and not too cautious. He will need to be to beat Moses. [:D]
________________________________________
I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club
RE: China only game
As an interested kibbitzer, I ask the following:ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
ORIGINAL: moses
Rules: one day turns
Japan can:
1.) Bring in 49,000 supplies each month by sea at Shanghie.
2.) Transfer in one group of Zero's and a group of Sally's.
3.) Can keep a BB and a couples CA's on hand for sea bombardment of coastal Chinese towns
4.) Can tranfer a small SNLF to Pokhoi on south coast of China in order to meet garrison requirements.
5.) Can transfer Kwatang area armies to China but must transfer them to China command using PP's and must insure that Russia has a garrison sufficient to prevent activation.
6.) Cannot transfer forces from other commands to either China or Russia except as in item 4 and 5 above.
7.) The 38th Div assigned to southern area command can only be used to take Hong Kong. After this point it should either be evacuated or can be used to garrison HK.
8.) Will be allowed to take Palambang without opposition in order to maintain oil stockpiles.
9.) Will be allowed to march into Burma without opposition beginning 1 March in order to cut Burma road.
China:
1.) Can transfer AVG and Chinese AF units between China, Burma, and India air base as desired.
2.) Can use any transport aircraft and any Chinese air unit on air supply missions. Non-Chinese units (ie. B-17's etc may not be used for this purpose) . C-47's etc may be transfered to Burma/India for this purpose.
3.) Cannot transfer any non-China command air or ground unit into theater other then the AVG and cannot change units to China command other than AVG.
Over the holidays I will be able to crank out turns fairly rapidly. Once school begins again I can still knock out several of these short turns daily most days.
Seems OK to me except
Japanese point 2 : Zeroes are better used elsewhere. Only after AVG has been used may a Zero unit be brought to China Command. You will probably use AVG quickly anyway.
Japanese point 5 : does it apply to China Command unit starting in Manchuria (the Mongolian Cavalry Divisions) ?
Japanese point 7 : will change it to : can use the 38th Div until 1st January 1942, then should sail it out of China.
Chinese point 3 : you should be able to transfer all Southeast Asia Chinese DIV back to China Command.
As for the connection date, it is in one week (minimum) or two (theorical maximum, hmmmm...) starting from two days ago.
Point 2: In my PBEM I transfer all the bombers/fighters I can (using PPs) from Kwantung, as well as an Air Hq. Is this disallowed under your HRs?
Point 4: In my PBEM I put in numerous NLF/SNLF/Guard units from Southern Army to free up the South Coast Chinese Divisions to head towards Wuchow. Is this disallowed? If so, why? It would take place in a 'normal' game (for me anyways).
General: One of the key Japanese shortcomings is the lack of armament. Unless other ground units are selected to take replacements in other theatres of this simulation, too much armament will be freed up to replenish Chinese forces for Japan. How will this be addressed?
Looking forward to this!
RE: China only game
point 2: yes it is disallowed, although it could be discussed. The problem is both players can play this game. For example it would easily be possible for the allied player to transfer in Hurrican's and B-17's.
The air rules I propose favor Japan, in my opinion, because I do not require any actions to deplete Japan's pilot pool to the extent as would occur in a full game. In other words you expect Japan pool of trained pilots to start running out fairly soon in a full game. Also in most games I would expect that China does not get priority of pilots from Japan. So as you got into Feb and March Japan's squadrens would be manned by pilots of lower quality. Under the rules I've outlined Japan will have high quality replacements at least until mid 42.
Point 4: Yes it is disallowed, but this can also be disussed and accomodated to some degree. I allow one unit to go Pokhoi because I think you pretty much have to and BTW I will not be doing anything aggressive in that area at least for the first few months. (Otherwise you have to let Japan react with outside forces).
As for other forces I would probably agree if, pressed, to allow a few SNLF's to help out on a temporary basis but again I think the current rules favor Japan for the reason you have already mentioned. I am allowing Japan to have as many replacements as they want and with 49,000 supplies every month you will not have supply problems. 2 of the 3 Divisions on the coast can be freed up quickly anyway by redistributing forces. By putting you base forces and other units on accept replacement you will be able to free up the other divisions fairly quickly. Also you can free up all 3 of those south coast divisions if you let a base or two fall below garrison requirements for a week or two and you have the supplies to deal with supply losses unless you completely overdo it.
All the rules have been designed with the view to provide a fair test of whether Japan can be stopped with a forward defense. I believe that overall they give the advantage to Japan. Of course in a full PBEM a player is free to send 5 SRA divisions and a bunch of zero's and Betties. But noone can claim that the theater is unbalanced if they require outside help in order to win.
The air rules I propose favor Japan, in my opinion, because I do not require any actions to deplete Japan's pilot pool to the extent as would occur in a full game. In other words you expect Japan pool of trained pilots to start running out fairly soon in a full game. Also in most games I would expect that China does not get priority of pilots from Japan. So as you got into Feb and March Japan's squadrens would be manned by pilots of lower quality. Under the rules I've outlined Japan will have high quality replacements at least until mid 42.
Point 4: Yes it is disallowed, but this can also be disussed and accomodated to some degree. I allow one unit to go Pokhoi because I think you pretty much have to and BTW I will not be doing anything aggressive in that area at least for the first few months. (Otherwise you have to let Japan react with outside forces).
As for other forces I would probably agree if, pressed, to allow a few SNLF's to help out on a temporary basis but again I think the current rules favor Japan for the reason you have already mentioned. I am allowing Japan to have as many replacements as they want and with 49,000 supplies every month you will not have supply problems. 2 of the 3 Divisions on the coast can be freed up quickly anyway by redistributing forces. By putting you base forces and other units on accept replacement you will be able to free up the other divisions fairly quickly. Also you can free up all 3 of those south coast divisions if you let a base or two fall below garrison requirements for a week or two and you have the supplies to deal with supply losses unless you completely overdo it.
All the rules have been designed with the view to provide a fair test of whether Japan can be stopped with a forward defense. I believe that overall they give the advantage to Japan. Of course in a full PBEM a player is free to send 5 SRA divisions and a bunch of zero's and Betties. But noone can claim that the theater is unbalanced if they require outside help in order to win.
RE: China only game
Very reasonable. I'm looking forward to reading the AARs!