Any takers for a China only game to compliment my game vs. WITP_Dude. I'm looking for someone to play Japan. The game goes quickly as once you get started the turns only take about 15 minutes or so. I'm interested in testing my theories in this theater to see if they are accurate or just so much BS.
Rules: one day turns
Japan can:
1.) Bring in 49,000 supplies each month by sea at Shanghie.
2.) Transfer in one group of Zero's and a group of Sally's.
3.) Can keep a BB and a couples CA's on hand for sea bombardment of coastal Chinese towns
4.) Can tranfer a small SNLF to Pokhoi on south coast of China in order to meet garrison requirements.
5.) Can transfer Kwatang area armies to China but must transfer them to China command using PP's and must insure that Russia has a garrison sufficient to prevent activation.
6.) Cannot transfer forces from other commands to either China or Russia except as in item 4 and 5 above.
7.) The 38th Div assigned to southern area command can only be used to take Hong Kong. After this point it should either be evacuated or can be used to garrison HK.
8.) Will be allowed to take Palambang without opposition in order to maintain oil stockpiles.
9.) Will be allowed to march into Burma without opposition beginning 1 March in order to cut Burma road.
China:
1.) Can transfer AVG and Chinese AF units between China, Burma, and India air base as desired.
2.) Can use any transport aircraft and any Chinese air unit on air supply missions. Non-Chinese units (ie. B-17's etc may not be used for this purpose) . C-47's etc may be transfered to Burma/India for this purpose.
3.) Cannot transfer any non-China command air or ground unit into theater other then the AVG and cannot change units to China command other than AVG.
Over the holidays I will be able to crank out turns fairly rapidly. Once school begins again I can still knock out several of these short turns daily most days.
China only game
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: China only game
I think it's only you and me who care about China. [8|]
________________________________________
I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club
RE: China only game
I care! Unfortunately I already have a couple of campaigns going. Sorry.
RE: China only game
Hi, I'd play as China but not as Japan. I'd be a poor choice as Japan since I don't go west of the RR.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
RE: China only game
I considered making this my first PBEM game, but I have to many other commitments. Good luck, and let us know what you find out. I did a little research on china 1931-1945 a few months ago and I for one would be interested in what you find out.
RE: China only game
Reply to Mogami:
Yes I'm looking for someone who believes the theater is unbalanced in favor of Japan and is willing test that theory against someone who is willing to put up an aggressive forward defence as China.
I believe that with proper tactics China can be a very dangerous opponent but every time I try to test my tactics against a human the game gets aborted before the china theater gets heated up.
Yes I'm looking for someone who believes the theater is unbalanced in favor of Japan and is willing test that theory against someone who is willing to put up an aggressive forward defence as China.
I believe that with proper tactics China can be a very dangerous opponent but every time I try to test my tactics against a human the game gets aborted before the china theater gets heated up.
RE: China only game
Hi, I don't think China favors Japan unless the Chinese try to defend forward early. I understand they must hold long enough for advanced units to pull back but on or around the RR is a very bad place to try to defend. The Japanese have many advantages
1. Better supply
2. more abundant replacements
3. Airpower
4. A faster transport network (all Japanese bases are connected via rail or ports)
No matter where the Chinese move the Japanese can just move to another location. If the Chinese move forward they will be cut off.
However if China only defends while allowing the forward units to retreat back onto the transport system and the rear units to move into central bases they can't be pushed out. Here the situation gets reversed. Whereever the Japanese come in force they allow a counter offensive. Their supply gets worse and the Chinese will be dug in. There are no airfields for the short legged Japanese bombers and the longer range types lose their escorts.
It is trying an advanced defense and losing units thats allows deeper Japanese success.
1. Better supply
2. more abundant replacements
3. Airpower
4. A faster transport network (all Japanese bases are connected via rail or ports)
No matter where the Chinese move the Japanese can just move to another location. If the Chinese move forward they will be cut off.
However if China only defends while allowing the forward units to retreat back onto the transport system and the rear units to move into central bases they can't be pushed out. Here the situation gets reversed. Whereever the Japanese come in force they allow a counter offensive. Their supply gets worse and the Chinese will be dug in. There are no airfields for the short legged Japanese bombers and the longer range types lose their escorts.
It is trying an advanced defense and losing units thats allows deeper Japanese success.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
RE: China only game
I disagree.
I believe that if the Chinese lose Yenan, Changsa, and Wuhan early on then then game is over for China. It will take some time but the Chinese supply situation will be hopeless and even if the ground offensive stalls, Japan will be able to bomb the remaining Chinese industry. The Chinese Army eats a lot of supply and it can't run on the resourses in the vicinity of Chungking. But the bottom line is that the three frontline cities provide well over 1000 supplies per day and without them China slowly dies. Thats what I have argued anyway.
For China to really stay in the game in my opinion they have to be able to put up a defence of these cities. This gives them the supply needed to sustain operations.
Many players have argued that this is foolhardy and that the chinese should retreat to the interior immediately or after a token defence. They argue that a forward defence is doomed to fail or at least is extrodinarily risky. I disagree and have developed tactics which I believe will allow China to pull off this type of defence. I may be wrong but am willing to test these ideas in practice.
I'm really looking for someone who thinks it can't be done.
I believe that if the Chinese lose Yenan, Changsa, and Wuhan early on then then game is over for China. It will take some time but the Chinese supply situation will be hopeless and even if the ground offensive stalls, Japan will be able to bomb the remaining Chinese industry. The Chinese Army eats a lot of supply and it can't run on the resourses in the vicinity of Chungking. But the bottom line is that the three frontline cities provide well over 1000 supplies per day and without them China slowly dies. Thats what I have argued anyway.
For China to really stay in the game in my opinion they have to be able to put up a defence of these cities. This gives them the supply needed to sustain operations.
Many players have argued that this is foolhardy and that the chinese should retreat to the interior immediately or after a token defence. They argue that a forward defence is doomed to fail or at least is extrodinarily risky. I disagree and have developed tactics which I believe will allow China to pull off this type of defence. I may be wrong but am willing to test these ideas in practice.
I'm really looking for someone who thinks it can't be done.
RE: China only game
Well at least one of you is wrong. [:D]
I say both are wrong. China will be eliminated by 1944 no matter what as long as the Japanese player is going to take the necessary steps to achieve this. Some don't want to bother though as the prefer playing around with floating and flying things out in the water.
I say both are wrong. China will be eliminated by 1944 no matter what as long as the Japanese player is going to take the necessary steps to achieve this. Some don't want to bother though as the prefer playing around with floating and flying things out in the water.
________________________________________
I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club
RE: China only game
Who knows who is correct as you have to get at least a year into the game in order to find out. They only way to find out is to have some China only games going, like ours, where you can get fairly deep into the campaign quickly.
You and I have managed to get two months into the campaign in three weeks of fairly casual gaming. This despite a work scheduale that kept me away for a number of nights and the holidays.
You and I have managed to get two months into the campaign in three weeks of fairly casual gaming. This despite a work scheduale that kept me away for a number of nights and the holidays.
RE: China only game
Hi, You do know that heavy industry stops producing supply if an enemy unit is in the hex. So the Japanese do not need to take any cities to hurt Chinese supply. Just move into them and sit. If Chinese supply goes down hill after losing them it weill do the same if the Japanese simply advance into them. What hurts and is seen right away is the loss of the supply already produced. But if the Chinese pull the units out of the city the supply will move as well. They can't do this in all the cities but they can do it to some.
Chinese units in central China not moving or engaged in combat consume less supply then ones deployed forward in a city defending against attack.
The Chinese can then bomb the cities to prevent them from suppling the enemy.
Chinese units in central China not moving or engaged in combat consume less supply then ones deployed forward in a city defending against attack.
The Chinese can then bomb the cities to prevent them from suppling the enemy.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
RE: China only game
Yes I am aware that you have to keep Japan out of the city in order to keep supply producing.
By pulling out of the three front line cities you solve your short term supply problems. I understand that some of the supply in these cities will move to the interior. Plus you don't lose as much supply fighting and being retreated. But since few people get past the first six months of the game the long term disadvantages of this plan are rarly recognized.
If you withdrawl in this way it makes things so easy for me as Japan. I do not have to go chasing you into the interior. I just hold at the rail and shift to the Northern front. Sien is perhaps the worst place that China can fight a decisive battle due to all the clear terrain. If China does not fight here then the entire north is lost. This leaves China with three producing cities perhaps as early as March. About that time the Burma road is cut and I will pick away at your cities with airpower. At some point my army will advance and occupy one of those three cities and production there will stop. Your army will starve.
Just my opinions though until some China games can be played out until at least late 42.
By pulling out of the three front line cities you solve your short term supply problems. I understand that some of the supply in these cities will move to the interior. Plus you don't lose as much supply fighting and being retreated. But since few people get past the first six months of the game the long term disadvantages of this plan are rarly recognized.
If you withdrawl in this way it makes things so easy for me as Japan. I do not have to go chasing you into the interior. I just hold at the rail and shift to the Northern front. Sien is perhaps the worst place that China can fight a decisive battle due to all the clear terrain. If China does not fight here then the entire north is lost. This leaves China with three producing cities perhaps as early as March. About that time the Burma road is cut and I will pick away at your cities with airpower. At some point my army will advance and occupy one of those three cities and production there will stop. Your army will starve.
Just my opinions though until some China games can be played out until at least late 42.
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jwilkerson
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- Contact:
RE: China only game
I've got a China only game going - but usually when I want to TEST out theories I have to play both sides to make sure my opponent does what I think is optimal ... however, my fear is that the game is slightly unbalanced in favor of China, so I don't fit your profile any way ( and need to bring in a bit more stuff accordingly ). But I will be trying my "theories" in another real game soon so I'll report back ( in current game, Chinese made strong start but situation seems to have stabilized - Scenario 16 ...mid-Mar now ... I am IJ ).
WITP Admiral's Edition - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
RE: China only game
The situation favors the Chinese? I'd hate to see if they fixed it to help the Japanese out a little more. [&:]
________________________________________
I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club
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jwilkerson
- Posts: 8255
- Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
- Location: Kansas
- Contact:
RE: China only game
Certainly there are many factors and I can't claim to have anything resembling an exhaustive analysis ...
But here is rough tally of China Theater.
Totals are
Chinese theoretical assault strength: 26,296 (TAS = number of infantry squad "slots")
Japanese theoretical assault strength: 15,054
Garrison Requirements: 2,422
Net Japanese theoretical assault strength: 12,632
Chinese net effective strength: ( @13 fire points each ) 341,848
Japanese net effective strength ( @21 FP each ) 265,272
So, the Chinese do have an advantage in pure maximum infantry fire power. Of course there are many other factors to consider - but any analysis has to start with the fundamental assessment of "feet on the ground" and the above is that assessment.
The first point to make, is the above is based on the MAXIMUM assault strengths ... and of course neither side start at maximum strength both sides look to be starting at an average of about 2/3 their maximum strength ... given Japanese artillery and "infantry engineers" ... this might decrease the Chinese advantage slightly at the start. But, we suspect the Chinese are much more capable of "filling the ranks" than the Japanese ... hence the variation at the start will first favor the Japanese a little more than the initial raw analysis ... but then rapidly ( if nothing else happens ) begin to favor the Chinese a little more .. until the Chinese "max out" and then allow the Japanese to "catch up" to the ratios indicated in the above initial analysis.
All in all this means the Chinese enjoy roughly a 5/4 edge in fire-power across the entire Chinese theather. Now if one thus assumes the Chinese are on the offensive ... then one could reduce this ratio a bit as some of the Japanese garrisons will come into play. Adding in ALL the IJA garrisions would probably not be accurate as some of them will be far away from the action ... and a few of the larger ones can be specifically avoided.
The questions of supply, engineers, armor, mobility and airpower come into the equation. Except for mobility, these seem to favor the Japanese to some extent. But it is not clear yet how much.
One other factor is the starting "readiness" with respect to locations. Here the Chinese have about a 100 to 0 advantage. A couple of "preordained offensives" are set up for the Chinese in the Area between Canton and Hanoi. In these areas the Chinese have 100 readiness points to attack their targets. The Japanese have 0 readiness points to defend them. In the Center and Northern areas, the Chinese have 100 readiness points to defend the cities in which they start and the Japanese have 0 readiness to do anything.
All the above is theory but it points to the idea that if the Chinese can survive long enough to exploit these advantages - then maybe they can hang on - so I wouldn't consider it hopeless yet.
But here is rough tally of China Theater.
Totals are
Chinese theoretical assault strength: 26,296 (TAS = number of infantry squad "slots")
Japanese theoretical assault strength: 15,054
Garrison Requirements: 2,422
Net Japanese theoretical assault strength: 12,632
Chinese net effective strength: ( @13 fire points each ) 341,848
Japanese net effective strength ( @21 FP each ) 265,272
So, the Chinese do have an advantage in pure maximum infantry fire power. Of course there are many other factors to consider - but any analysis has to start with the fundamental assessment of "feet on the ground" and the above is that assessment.
The first point to make, is the above is based on the MAXIMUM assault strengths ... and of course neither side start at maximum strength both sides look to be starting at an average of about 2/3 their maximum strength ... given Japanese artillery and "infantry engineers" ... this might decrease the Chinese advantage slightly at the start. But, we suspect the Chinese are much more capable of "filling the ranks" than the Japanese ... hence the variation at the start will first favor the Japanese a little more than the initial raw analysis ... but then rapidly ( if nothing else happens ) begin to favor the Chinese a little more .. until the Chinese "max out" and then allow the Japanese to "catch up" to the ratios indicated in the above initial analysis.
All in all this means the Chinese enjoy roughly a 5/4 edge in fire-power across the entire Chinese theather. Now if one thus assumes the Chinese are on the offensive ... then one could reduce this ratio a bit as some of the Japanese garrisons will come into play. Adding in ALL the IJA garrisions would probably not be accurate as some of them will be far away from the action ... and a few of the larger ones can be specifically avoided.
The questions of supply, engineers, armor, mobility and airpower come into the equation. Except for mobility, these seem to favor the Japanese to some extent. But it is not clear yet how much.
One other factor is the starting "readiness" with respect to locations. Here the Chinese have about a 100 to 0 advantage. A couple of "preordained offensives" are set up for the Chinese in the Area between Canton and Hanoi. In these areas the Chinese have 100 readiness points to attack their targets. The Japanese have 0 readiness points to defend them. In the Center and Northern areas, the Chinese have 100 readiness points to defend the cities in which they start and the Japanese have 0 readiness to do anything.
All the above is theory but it points to the idea that if the Chinese can survive long enough to exploit these advantages - then maybe they can hang on - so I wouldn't consider it hopeless yet.
WITP Admiral's Edition - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
RE: China only game
The only thing that counts in the final determination are the assualt points of the units.
________________________________________
I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club
RE: China only game
Hi, Fight a few battles where with the editor you have 0 readiness and then a few where you have 100 percent readiness and compare results. Now if both sides are in the same status pure AV is what matters. But 100 AV at 100 percent readiness is better then 200 AV with 0 readiness.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
RE: China only game
Doesn't this show up on the combat screen? Sometimes I see a division with 1000 or more assualt points when the fighting begins. Maybe this is FOW, I don't know.
________________________________________
I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club
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AmiralLaurent
- Posts: 3351
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:53 pm
- Location: Near Paris, France
RE: China only game
ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude
Doesn't this show up on the combat screen? Sometimes I see a division with 1000 or more assualt points when the fighting begins. Maybe this is FOW, I don't know.
I think the assault points displayed on screen are the modified assault points (by preparation, HQ, supplies and whatever else).
I hope that the last patch (with prep 100% for Chinese and 0% for Japanese) will slow the latter enough to give time for the Chinese to organize their defence.