Question – can there be any improvements in night battles? For example, spotting out to four or six hexes seems reasonable at night, but hitting should be much harder. Could all shots suffer a 50% drop in hit chance during a night battle? Also, could command and control points suffer the same effectiveness penalty, to reflect the confusion of a night battle? It would be nice to have better night battles, to go along with the improved infantry.
As for the rest of the improvemnts, it is great news. Infantry has always been the most poorly modeled element of the game. I am happy with 5.3 so far – melee makes up for the small teams not dying (my experience anyway). The changes for 6.0 sound even better. We will be able to make Infantry based campaigns – pacific, airborne, etc. – as gripping as the armor based campaigns.
Steel Panthers World At War v6.0
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Fabio Prado
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Paul Vebber
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If you think getting "big kills" occasionally is bad, by turning up infantry toughness you effective lower the dynamic range back down, so you can adjust it to your preference. Anybobdy that relies on dumb luck with lose...but at times the best laid plan runs amok of an artillery round landing in the wrong place or your squad bunching up at an inopportune moment...
Walls are still in the hex and if you are adjacent to cover, you can always duck behind it without getting shot, so youcan retire 50m to cover without exposing a vulnerability, but not more than that.
As I said before, the list is the list, if its not on list its not in the new version...
[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]
Walls are still in the hex and if you are adjacent to cover, you can always duck behind it without getting shot, so youcan retire 50m to cover without exposing a vulnerability, but not more than that.
As I said before, the list is the list, if its not on list its not in the new version...
[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]
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Larry Holt
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It is not clear why you think that hitting would be more attrited than spotting. Weapons with magnifying sights also collect and concentrate light so spotting with them is less attrited than plain visual sighting is.Originally posted by A_B:
Question – can there be any improvements in night battles? For example, spotting out to four or six hexes seems reasonable at night, but hitting should be much harder. Could all shots suffer a 50% drop in hit chance during a night battle? Also, could command and control points suffer the same effectiveness penalty, to reflect the confusion of a night battle?...
As for the rest of the improvemnts, it is great news. Infantry has always been the most poorly modeled element of the game. I am happy with 5.3 so far – melee makes up for the small teams not dying (my experience anyway)...
C&C is definately harder at night & I echo the comments about how improved the game is now that the infantry model has been changed.
Never take counsel of your fears.
During the day, almost all spotting is by visual contact. At night, hearing can become almost as important. Tanks could be 'spotted' by their noise far before they could be effectivly engaged. Even Infantry can be sensed - noise, fleeting movement - before they can be taken under aimed fire. Once you do shoot, it will be more akin to area fire. There a ton of variable, ie; aiming at muzzle flash would make for a pretty nice site picture, and once the shooting starts, you can't hear sh*t. I was just hoping for a few simple (easy to code) solutions to add some flavor to night battles. I've started working on a US Airborne campaign, which features night drop insertions & skirmishes, followed in the next battle with more deliberate assaults or defenses. The night battles as currently modeled are just too arbitray. If you can see twenty hexes during the day, but not 21, it doesn't drasticaly effect play. However, seeing 4 hexes, but not 5 makes a bigger diffence. I'm not suggesting a big fix, such as variable spotting tables based on wheather and light data. If there is an easy way to code it though, it would add to the game.It is not clear why you think that hitting would be more attrited than spotting. Weapons with magnifying sights also collect and concentrate light so spotting with them is less attrited than plain visual sighting is.
C&C is definately harder at night & I echo the comments about how improved the game is now that the infantry model has been changed.
PS Heavy rain could also effect CC points too.
Unconventional war requires unconventional thought
@Paul:
I just want to know if these Points are possible at all. I guess these features are not easy to include in the Game so is it possible at all?
1. How is it with Reverse Gear for Vehicles?
2. And Amo choosing, so you could save the good Babes for the tough Guys?
3. Is Cover like Walls etc. still handled that way that the Unit is in Cover no matter from witch side they get shot at?
For example:
I had a Russian Infantry squad pinned at a wall and shot them from on side and then from the opposite direction but every shot was useless.
This would be OK for Cover like Buildings, Foxholes etc. that covers the unit almost total but not for Walls, abandon Vehicles, Trench etc., cross fire should be deadly if your are behind such cover.
Must have looked funny to see russans jumping from one side of the wall to the other and back again
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6.0 and the Improvements sound very good in my ear and I can't wait till I get it, keep up the good work.
[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: BigDuke66 ]
I just want to know if these Points are possible at all. I guess these features are not easy to include in the Game so is it possible at all?
1. How is it with Reverse Gear for Vehicles?
2. And Amo choosing, so you could save the good Babes for the tough Guys?
3. Is Cover like Walls etc. still handled that way that the Unit is in Cover no matter from witch side they get shot at?
For example:
I had a Russian Infantry squad pinned at a wall and shot them from on side and then from the opposite direction but every shot was useless.
This would be OK for Cover like Buildings, Foxholes etc. that covers the unit almost total but not for Walls, abandon Vehicles, Trench etc., cross fire should be deadly if your are behind such cover.
Must have looked funny to see russans jumping from one side of the wall to the other and back again
.6.0 and the Improvements sound very good in my ear and I can't wait till I get it, keep up the good work.
[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: BigDuke66 ]
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Paul Vebber
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You have to wait for Combat Leader Big Duke...there is only so much we can do to good ole SP...
It is general consensus form previous threads, that if you were going to back up more than about 50m a tank would turn around to do it. The argument that a tank crew would want to keep its front hull to the enemy is arguable if the slow speed in reverse lets teh enemy get 3 shots at you when turning might mean less. Plus the trouble going reverse if buttoned (you are driving blind) many tankers indicate that keeping the turret front toward teh enemy and beating feet is how most would go a large distance.
In the game if you are in a hex on a hill top next to the back slope (out of LOS) and you get shot at, you can always back up that one hex and not only does teh enemy not get to shoot your rear, it NEVER gets to shoot you at all since the opfire is triggered by entering the NEXT hex. SO if you stay next to cover like woods (if vis<29) or building, or back slope of a hill, you can alwaays "back up" one hex with impunity.
for walls to have a "side" they need to be made hexside terraine features, no such thing in SP so no can do with out an entirely new file structure.
Choosing ammo - your tank crews do that that as best they can, in teh heat of battle they make mistakes. The game is "Two Borg collectives fighting with WW2 weapons" C2 wise...having the battalion or regimental commander telling the troops what type of round to fire everytime is too far into the realm of micromanagement even for ARMY XXI, let alone WWII...If you want to play loader and gunner, that is the realm of tank sim games...
In Combat Leader at some point (ie likely not in the first module) there will be the ability to give orders to units, but in the heat of battle they will not always follow them exactly...These sorts of complete overhaul changes are why we are doing CL. They will never appear in SP:WaW.
It is general consensus form previous threads, that if you were going to back up more than about 50m a tank would turn around to do it. The argument that a tank crew would want to keep its front hull to the enemy is arguable if the slow speed in reverse lets teh enemy get 3 shots at you when turning might mean less. Plus the trouble going reverse if buttoned (you are driving blind) many tankers indicate that keeping the turret front toward teh enemy and beating feet is how most would go a large distance.
In the game if you are in a hex on a hill top next to the back slope (out of LOS) and you get shot at, you can always back up that one hex and not only does teh enemy not get to shoot your rear, it NEVER gets to shoot you at all since the opfire is triggered by entering the NEXT hex. SO if you stay next to cover like woods (if vis<29) or building, or back slope of a hill, you can alwaays "back up" one hex with impunity.
for walls to have a "side" they need to be made hexside terraine features, no such thing in SP so no can do with out an entirely new file structure.
Choosing ammo - your tank crews do that that as best they can, in teh heat of battle they make mistakes. The game is "Two Borg collectives fighting with WW2 weapons" C2 wise...having the battalion or regimental commander telling the troops what type of round to fire everytime is too far into the realm of micromanagement even for ARMY XXI, let alone WWII...If you want to play loader and gunner, that is the realm of tank sim games...
In Combat Leader at some point (ie likely not in the first module) there will be the ability to give orders to units, but in the heat of battle they will not always follow them exactly...These sorts of complete overhaul changes are why we are doing CL. They will never appear in SP:WaW.
have i kissed you guy's feet lately? mmm mmm mm mmm mmm mm mmm. Ok not as enjoyable as kissing a horse but it's the thought that counts.
You guys are the best damn wargame company ever to grace the planet. Cant wait to get my mitts on this version. Finally!!! the long question of MG fire vs rifles being solved. wow.
one question. Since the evolution of the game towards greater realism and more realistic tactics seems to be creating longer times to achieve goals, will we be seing scenerios with larger turn spans? I realize that not all battles allow one the luxery of fighting a set piece attack but it seems to me that too many of the (otherwise well designed) scenerios give the player too few time to do little more than rush at the objectives.
heh, given what "rushing" can now cost an attacker heavy with infantry, that does not sound like a good thing to do.
You guys are the best damn wargame company ever to grace the planet. Cant wait to get my mitts on this version. Finally!!! the long question of MG fire vs rifles being solved. wow.
one question. Since the evolution of the game towards greater realism and more realistic tactics seems to be creating longer times to achieve goals, will we be seing scenerios with larger turn spans? I realize that not all battles allow one the luxery of fighting a set piece attack but it seems to me that too many of the (otherwise well designed) scenerios give the player too few time to do little more than rush at the objectives.
heh, given what "rushing" can now cost an attacker heavy with infantry, that does not sound like a good thing to do.
- is what I miss most in night fighting
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Panzer Leo
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Hi David !
I hope, I got that right:
team MGs effective range up to 500m
significant drop of casualties from 500 to 750m
750m+ no (or almost no) casualties, suppression only
In case you want to make this a "universal set of range bands for team MGs", I want to encourage you, to check your references on WWII MGs once more. I do believe, that these ranges are right for a lot of MGs, but I also do know, that they're not for at least a few types.
I can only speak for the MG42 Lafette (tripod), cause I was an instructor for the MG3 (same weapon - only important difference: MG42 got HIGHER rate of fire).
I trained recruits to open fire at moving infantry at 800m. At 800m you still have to use the traverse and elevation to get enough spread, to hit a squad of ten men with a distance of 1-3m to each other. At a range of 1000-1200m, you don't have to use t&e anymore, cause the natural spread of the weapon is enough, to cover an advancing squad (keep in mind the weapon is equiped with optics and illumination rounds - you can see the bullets up to 1200m in daylight)
This range is not the maximum range, the weapon can fire ! I know the meaning of effective range very well and I'm familiar with adjusting real life ranges to SPWAW effective ones !
1200m is about the maximum range of a MG42 Lafette, where you can expect significant numbers of casualties. Everything that exceeds this, goes into the category of suppression only.
I do not post things like this easily, but I believe, it will be a thread in the future, in case you're bringing out a not adjustable set of universal team MG ranges. I simply believe, it is wrong.
I cannot speak for other types of WWII MGs, cause the MG42 is the only one I know from my own experience, but this problem goes to all MGs with similar caracteristics, of course.
I hope, I got that right:
team MGs effective range up to 500m
significant drop of casualties from 500 to 750m
750m+ no (or almost no) casualties, suppression only
In case you want to make this a "universal set of range bands for team MGs", I want to encourage you, to check your references on WWII MGs once more. I do believe, that these ranges are right for a lot of MGs, but I also do know, that they're not for at least a few types.
I can only speak for the MG42 Lafette (tripod), cause I was an instructor for the MG3 (same weapon - only important difference: MG42 got HIGHER rate of fire).
I trained recruits to open fire at moving infantry at 800m. At 800m you still have to use the traverse and elevation to get enough spread, to hit a squad of ten men with a distance of 1-3m to each other. At a range of 1000-1200m, you don't have to use t&e anymore, cause the natural spread of the weapon is enough, to cover an advancing squad (keep in mind the weapon is equiped with optics and illumination rounds - you can see the bullets up to 1200m in daylight)
This range is not the maximum range, the weapon can fire ! I know the meaning of effective range very well and I'm familiar with adjusting real life ranges to SPWAW effective ones !
1200m is about the maximum range of a MG42 Lafette, where you can expect significant numbers of casualties. Everything that exceeds this, goes into the category of suppression only.
I do not post things like this easily, but I believe, it will be a thread in the future, in case you're bringing out a not adjustable set of universal team MG ranges. I simply believe, it is wrong.
I cannot speak for other types of WWII MGs, cause the MG42 is the only one I know from my own experience, but this problem goes to all MGs with similar caracteristics, of course.
Mir nach, ich folge euch !
Leo it has already been a thread. The M2HB has better range than any other mg. We'll have to wait and see.Originally posted by Panzer Leo:
Hi David !
I hope, I got that right:
team MGs effective range up to 500m
significant drop of casualties from 500 to 750m
750m+ no (or almost no) casualties, suppression only
In case you want to make this a "universal set of range bands for team MGs", I want to encourage you, to check your references on WWII MGs once more. I do believe, that these ranges are right for a lot of MGs, but I also do know, that they're not for at least a few types.
I can only speak for the MG42 Lafette (tripod), cause I was an instructor for the MG3 (same weapon - only important difference: MG42 got HIGHER rate of fire).
I trained recruits to open fire at moving infantry at 800m. At 800m you still have to use the traverse and elevation to get enough spread, to hit a squad of ten men with a distance of 1-3m to each other. At a range of 1000-1200m, you don't have to use t&e anymore, cause the natural spread of the weapon is enough, to cover an advancing squad (keep in mind the weapon is equiped with optics and illumination rounds - you can see the bullets up to 1200m in daylight)
This range is not the maximum range, the weapon can fire ! I know the meaning of effective range very well and I'm familiar with adjusting real life ranges to SPWAW effective ones !
1200m is about the maximum range of a MG42 Lafette, where you can expect significant numbers of casualties. Everything that exceeds this, goes into the category of suppression only.
I do not post things like this easily, but I believe, it will be a thread in the future, in case you're bringing out a not adjustable set of universal team MG ranges. I simply believe, it is wrong.
I cannot speak for other types of WWII MGs, cause the MG42 is the only one I know from my own experience, but this problem goes to all MGs with similar caracteristics, of course.
regards,
sven
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Panzer Leo
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My ? is why are rifles only effective out to 200 yards. My service experince in korea and on. Most marines engage targets at 500 and under. Not to sure about other countrys and services but kinda seems very short range in a time most rifles at least in marine service trained at 500 yards at least. UNless of course you couldnt see it.
Krull
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Paul Vebber
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THe ranges listed are generalities, not hard coded. The only thing hard coded is the "bonus" range for small arms kicking in at 350m (in in 10 chance) and increasing down to point blank.
MGs and AA guns and the actual effects are a function of unit characteristics (hit chance for "real" hits, and volume of fire = hekill value for "extra" hits because you are throwing so much lead some of it will hit somebody out of dumb luck.
So the actual range bands and effectiveness will vary based on the individual unit characteristics not hard coded range bands - they are just observations based on playtesting of observed averages. 50cals for instance are effective to longer ranges than Maxim HMG even though both are HMG and LMG 34 much more effective to a longer range than BRen, but far short of an MMG MG 34...
That is what we were trying to get across. The weapons "effective range" is a matter of opinion and game play. just as it is no fun when MGs do nothing, if MGs wiped out squads at 24 hexes routinely there would not be much of a game...since troops managed to routinely close MGs to within 16-24 hexes, then there is something beyond firepower at work - spotting ability.
In any case if you increase teh range and accuracy of MGs in teh OOBs the "effective range band" will move out accordingly. But wiping out squads at 16-24 hexes is a bit hard play with.
Now I probebly confused you even more
MGs and AA guns and the actual effects are a function of unit characteristics (hit chance for "real" hits, and volume of fire = hekill value for "extra" hits because you are throwing so much lead some of it will hit somebody out of dumb luck.
So the actual range bands and effectiveness will vary based on the individual unit characteristics not hard coded range bands - they are just observations based on playtesting of observed averages. 50cals for instance are effective to longer ranges than Maxim HMG even though both are HMG and LMG 34 much more effective to a longer range than BRen, but far short of an MMG MG 34...
That is what we were trying to get across. The weapons "effective range" is a matter of opinion and game play. just as it is no fun when MGs do nothing, if MGs wiped out squads at 24 hexes routinely there would not be much of a game...since troops managed to routinely close MGs to within 16-24 hexes, then there is something beyond firepower at work - spotting ability.
In any case if you increase teh range and accuracy of MGs in teh OOBs the "effective range band" will move out accordingly. But wiping out squads at 16-24 hexes is a bit hard play with.
Now I probebly confused you even more
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Panzer Leo
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Paul Vebber
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The 200 yards represents the range in the standard combat situation of prone firer firing at prone target.
You can get kills on men moving in the open much farther, but firing at a target at 500 yards, and trying to engage a dodging weaving, dropping prone human trying to stay alive is a much different task...Out much past 350 yards or so its more luck than anything else and the game reflects that - you suppres out there, but only rarely kill.
In side the 350 yard range you get more opportunities for actual aimed shots - not just throwing lead down range, and the chances increase the closer you are, and that is what the "small arms bonus" is meant to represent.
Why 350? Well it "feels right" and seems to be about the range I rememeber shooting in competition where you had to start monkeying with the sight dope to keep on target, or rely on Kentucky windage
[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]
You can get kills on men moving in the open much farther, but firing at a target at 500 yards, and trying to engage a dodging weaving, dropping prone human trying to stay alive is a much different task...Out much past 350 yards or so its more luck than anything else and the game reflects that - you suppres out there, but only rarely kill.
In side the 350 yard range you get more opportunities for actual aimed shots - not just throwing lead down range, and the chances increase the closer you are, and that is what the "small arms bonus" is meant to represent.
Why 350? Well it "feels right" and seems to be about the range I rememeber shooting in competition where you had to start monkeying with the sight dope to keep on target, or rely on Kentucky windage
[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]
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RockinHarry
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