Some faults in SPWAW and some anecdotes about american heroism!

darroch · Post by **darroch** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:47 am

"And now some anecdotes about the dreaded (american) heroism, which is so often described in this message board."

"(american heroism)" ??? - I guessed I missed the pro-american propaganda - on which threads is it "often described"?? I'd love to read some.

Until you started GI bashing it seemed like just another posting about SPWAW trivia...

only on a forum like this could you speak seriously about the correct way to handle WW2 skirt armor from a shot penetration perspective!! And get a serious answer back the same day!!

then you started with the anecdotes...

your point was?

The US Army goes to seed during peacetime? Ohmigod!!! That's NEVER happened!!

The US Army, enjoying 10:1 numerical superiority late in WW2 chose not to forego their advantage and go one-on-one with their Shermans against Tigers??

Shocking - imagine that - soldiers retreating to avoid sure destruction against unbeatable odds, to live to fight another day on better terms...

I can't tell you how glad I am that the German stereotype is to continue attacking senselessly against superior odds without hope of winning - because without that mentality, Kursk, El Alamein, Falaise, and Bastogne would never have been such far-reaching Allied victories and the war would have been much longer and costlier...

Since we're dealing in stereotypes here, try this one:

- Hitler reckoned the US was soft, indulgent, and morally weak - their strength sapped by too many years of the good life of plenty...

- He declared war on the US casually after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.. Some Japanese (Yammamoto) did not share the notion that Americans are weak-willed and had no illusions as to what they were tangling with.

- Initial US performances (Kasserine Pass) served to strengthen the impression of soft, weak Americans who couldn't stand up to the Wehrmacht...

Quiz time: besides Russia and the Commonwealth, name the combatant with the largest navy, air force, and army on May 9, 1945? For bonus points, whose army was in shreds, whose air force non-existent?

- Hilter would have been better served to have studied a handful of battles where Americans displayed their true combat capabilities:

Ever hear of the Iron Brigade at Gettysburg? Antietam? Belleau Wood? Shiloh? the Argonne Forest? How about Amiens, the day that Ludendorff called the "blackest day" of the Great War?? Yanks did that one.

What Hitler, and the Kaiser did was confuse an aversion to war with softness...they led Germany into war with the US and Germany lost both times...in both cases, American armies defeated German armies on the field of battle

did they do it alone? - no, it took numerous allies and millions of casualties

did they learn the hard lessons of war after initial failures? - yes

In each case, did the US Army develop into a fully capable modern army in a relatively short period time? Yup, both times

It occurs to me that you may have bought into the Great Myth of the Undefeated Wehrmacht?

You know, the one that says the Wehrmacht is the greatest army of all time and has never really been defeated on the field of battle?

According to the myth, the Wehrmacht was never defeated on the field of battle during WW 1 but that the war was lost on the home front to defeatists and bolsheviks...hmm

Hilter capitalized on this self-delusion and led Germany into WW2...after that, to try and save face, Wehrmacht fans claimed that it was Allied numerical superiority which destroyed Germany and that at anything like even odds, the Germans would always win through superior training, weaponry, or warrior courage....

Oh, give it a rest.

No country has a monopoly on courage, sacrifice, or moral strength....

I figure that anyone who starts another war suffering under the notion that Americans are soft and cowardly will find that they should have left well enough alone..

Del · Post by **Del** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:52 am

Hi Jaques. Welcome aboard. I've been on more forums than you can shake a flaming stick at. A large majority have someone like you. I'm waiting for some original US bashing, come on, you seem like a well educated small minded individual. Give it a real go. Not this half baked drivel.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:59 am

Oh, and Jaques, if you want to get into some Heavy Weight US bashing - the Pros hang out up at the Art of Wargaming Forum

sven · Post by **sven** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:00 am

We are stupid and soft because we were not as stupid and hard as the Wehrmacht. You know the Wehrmacht that did not have a sustained advance against any major force in the world post Kursk. The Wehrmacht that surrendered in numbers not to be seen again until the Iraqis(another group of 'Hard Men' who were going to 'take the US to School') pulled off the trick 35 years later.

Listen up Jock or Fritz or Bob who started this thread. I love your country, and have ancestors there in Essen. Your women are some of the nicest on Earth. We helped you guys rebuild because we desperately wanted your nation to lose its war 'habit'.

The Landswehr is tough, and I have friends in the Jaegers. I think your BurgerFuhrer school is one of the best in the world. You guys tought us how to retreat against Ivan inflicting massive casualties as you did it.

I refuse to cast vitriol towards your nation.

I understand why you are busy slamming mine.(after all if my nation had had its butt whipped twice by the same nation I would be humiliated too)

I hope you get some kind of great ego therapy out of this thread. You sound as though you need it. I had a much harsher, funnier, and hateful post earlier. I decided it was better to walk around a man than stoop and be a beast.

have fun,
a US Army ex-infantryman(scoreboard vs. germany 2-0)

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:02 am

Originally posted by Jaques Rico:
And now some anecdotes about the dreaded (american) heroism, which is so often described in this message board.

1. Battle of Tebourba 01.12-03.12.1942
3 Tiger E of the 1./501 and less than 20 Pzkfw III of the 10.PD destroyed 134 tanks of the Crusader- and General Lee-types.

2. I know about an event when 4 Tiger E encountered 16 Sherman M4. The Tigers shot down the first 4 Sherman tanks. After that the other 12 tanks stopped and were abandoned in panic by their crews. You can find a better description of that event in the book "Tiger - Die Geschichte einer legendären Waffe 1942-45" which is the THE standard book about the Tiger weapon. I will look the exakt date and location up later und post it then. However such behaviour shows how brave american troops truly were in their fight for freedom, peace and pin up girls when they didnt have a better friend to enemy ratio than 10:1.

I too know some really good anecdotes about american troops in NATO-exercises. Care to know how 4 german fast-boats were able to defeat a complete american cruiser task group consisting of 2 cruisers and 4 destroyers? Or how one german M113 with a group of 12 soldiers was able to defeat 4 american heavy tanks and 60 soldiers?

Oh, and if the american army is really so great, somebody may explain to me, why they in Vietnam used Agent Orange in areas where their own troops were stationed without (!) telling them of the consequences. (Cancer etc.) And its interesting how history repeats itselve. During desert storm american tanks used uranium-ammunition and nobody told the men, that the uranium dust, which is set free when such a grenade hits, will, after they inhaled it, stay in their bones. Some members of that tank crews now have cancer, some have fathered very sick children...
Well they fought with the M1A1, which is really crap compared to the Leopard 2 Mk5, but still, the idea to poison ones own troops to give them a (very slight) advantage in a fight strikes me as ridicilous.

And a nice bonus question: Which american admiral commanded during WW2 his ships in a dress?

And wasnt it Gregory "Pappy" Boington who said: "Show me an american hero and I´ll prove he´s a bum." That quote is better known without the word "american" in front of the "hero". I wonder why?

Hey Newbie! See my raised middle finger? Perch and rotate!

jjc424 · Post by **jjc424** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:15 am

The Americans fought and died just as bravely
as any other soldier of any other country. So please quit insulting the memory of these brave Heroes.

Fenrir · Post by **Fenrir** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:22 am

Originally posted by darroch:

According to the myth, the Wehrmacht was never defeated on the field of battle during WW 1 but that the war was lost on the home front to defeatists and bolsheviks...hmm

Sorry Darroch,

the "Wehrmacht" was indeed never defeated during WW1, but this is due to her nonexistence till 1935; the army of the Kaiserreich is another mattter.

Folkert

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 4:27 am

Hey any chance the fresh fish plays PBEM???
sorry guys I may have to slip a day or two behind schedual on the OOB's

YO TIGERKITTY come on Play me

Version 6.1 4000 points Meeting engagement ( remember no mines in a meeting engagement ) Sept 44 medium map everything on but C&C limited ammo on reduced squads on True troop and rarity ON

here kitty kitty kitty

[ July 09, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

jjc424 · Post by **jjc424** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 4:27 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fenrir:
[QB]

Sorry Darroch,

the "Wehrmacht" was indeed never defeated during WW1, but this is due to her nonexistence till 1935; the army of the Kaiserreich is another mattter.

I am sorry but where i come from surrender means defeat.

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 4:38 am

Unless you'd prefer it that way, I suggest you remember that without the Americans there wouldn't be a Europe. Just a 1000-year Reich. But then, Europeans voted in the European Union, so it seems dictatorship is something desired.

FatFred · Post by **FatFred** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 4:40 am

You know I could have swore that I once read that German army of WWII ... sent Brand new tanks (Panthers) Into the biggest tank battle ever seen to that point(Kursk) before they were done field testing and that they broke down in large numbers , And that your army was fighting in sub zero weather with summer uniforms... Talk about not caring about your troops welfare. I can also remember reading that the first jet fighter to see combat (Me-262) was turned into a useless bomber because hilter ordered it so.
But the kicker is That as a young man I was told ,That hilter was the best general The allies had ....BECAUSE HE WAS STUPID !!!!!!!!!

I am very proud of my country and the things it has done and the way my Armed forces have preformed over the last few hundred years good and bad . At least we have the balls to go to hot spots around the world. right or wrong.
You are entitled to your opinion of us. which leads me to beleive that I am entitled to my own opinion of you ...

Your an A--

Fenrir · Post by **Fenrir** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 4:43 am

Originally posted by jjc424:

Originally posted by Fenrir:
[QB]

Sorry Darroch,

the "Wehrmacht" was indeed never defeated during WW1, but this is due to her nonexistence till 1935; the army of the Kaiserreich is another mattter.

I am sorry but where i come from surrender means defeat.

Hi!

Just a quick clarification, before this starts to turn ugly:

Yes, the Kaiserreich and it's army were defeated. (I never meant to deny this.)

"Wehrmacht", however, is a term which designates the armed forces of the Third Reich from 1935 onwards.
So the "Wehrmacht" could not be defeated during WW1, as it didn't exist then.

Folkert

Alby · Post by **Alby** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 4:47 am

"1. Battle of Tebourba 01.12-03.12.1942
3 Tiger E of the 1./501 and less than 20 Pzkfw III of the 10.PD destroyed 134 tanks of the Crusader- and General Lee-types."

You sure you are speaking of americans here??
crusaders? jan 1942?? sounds like brits to me

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 4:51 am

Tigers Jan 42 ?????? what OOB you got ???
come on guys Help this little girl get a game with the fearless Panzer leader with the funny french name

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 4:54 am

In the For what its worth department I checked the SP:WaW penetration vs range with the values in Lorrin Bird and Robert Livingston's new book for 75L48:

______100___500__1000__1500__2000__2500
SPWaW...134...125...113...101...88...76
B&L.....135...123...109....97...86...76

[ July 09, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]

BruceAZ · Post by **BruceAZ** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 4:54 am

Boy, you would never last at point in my platoon near Khe Sahn in 1968. I'm sure you would have been the type that we would ship home in a bodybag. If you have never been there, your arguments about heroism has little merit. But, whatever, everyone should be able to express their opinion even people like you. That's what this is all about.

Bruce
Semper Fi

Jaques Rico · Post by **Jaques Rico** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 4:59 am

@AmmoSgt

Sorry, of course its Januar 43. I mistyped there. I will answer the other posts later, when I have a bit time at hands. Sven and that guy, who accused me of believing in the "Dolchstoßlegende", are just to funny.

And Ammosgt, very good that you saw that fault.

Greetings
JR

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 5:06 am

JR either you got the guts for a PBEM Game or ya don't, it that simple , Me US - You Germany terms as stated .. lets see if you can at least play at being a solider?

Del · Post by **Del** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 5:11 am

Tigers Jan 42 ?????? what OOB you got ???
come on guys Help this little girl get a game with the fearless Panzer leader with the funny french name

Whoa there. Jaques just got his history a little confused. The battle he refers to was not in January. It was the town of Tebourba in Tunesia in the first week and a half of December 1942. The unit was the First US Armored Division under British control at the time. He must be confused about the type of tank destroyed considering this was a US division which, during the Tunisian campaign gave as good as it got.

sven · Post by **sven** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 5:17 am

Originally posted by Jaques Rico:
@AmmoSgt

Sorry, of course its Januar 43. I mistyped there. I will answer the other posts later, when I have a bit time at hands. Sven and that guy, who accused me of believing in the "Dolchstoßlegende", are just to funny.

And Ammosgt, very good that you saw that fault.

Greetings
JR

Hey Jack Rico more is the pity you do not post your bio in your profile. I do not attribute anything to you other than a proclivity to spread adhominum on the dead. You are beneath contempt and soon will be at the current rate beneath notice.

You are a neophyte at this USA baiting. You are also ill-informed, or at least extremely selective in your research. I decided to edit my own vitriol which if you do a search you will see I am capable of.

Show me what a superior man will do to win a contest of wits. I am in rapt attention awaiting more eloquence on your part. You sir are a veritable cornucopia of knowledge, wisdom, and clarity.(we peons can only bask in your wit, verbosity, and charm)

Show your mighty Euro super powers. Accept Ammo's challenge. I am sure you'll win!(ask around she is a pushover)

You were spanked by Paul Vebber by the way. Is making unfounded claims of errors part of the strategy you excel at? Oh hey guess what the Pen of the GAU8 is wrong also, but I guess you knew that right guy?(it isn't in the game lad but don't let that stop you)

enlighten us,
sven