Did some spot reading of my Aces of the Reich book yesterday and I found that the Germans too had a reason for benching aces. They didn't have anything formal as far as the book mentioned, but they did say that a lot of aces were sent to be instructors at flight schools because the thought was that it would be a greater blow for the country to lose a pilot with a lot of kills than to have him instructing. There were a number of pilots however who couldn't handle doing the instructing and some managed to find ways to sneak back into fighters.
I found an interesting portion of the book which I'll quote when I get home today, dealing with confirmation of kills and the like, including a statement as to how many planes the aces shot down on both fronts (it's massive).
Pilot Kills
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Charles2222
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I seem to remember something about this where some of the leading German aces would give their kill to other pilots or actually not take credit for some kills so as to NOT be sent back as an instructor. Can't remember where I read it.Originally posted by Charles_22:
Did some spot reading of my Aces of the Reich book yesterday and I found that the Germans too had a reason for benching aces. They didn't have anything formal as far as the book mentioned, but they did say that a lot of aces were sent to be instructors at flight schools because the thought was that it would be a greater blow for the country to lose a pilot with a lot of kills than to have him instructing. There were a number of pilots however who couldn't handle doing the instructing and some managed to find ways to sneak back into fighters.
But back to the attrition question, I have never seen anything concerning the number of pilots lost on the ground due to attacks on bases, or for that matter how many were lost while on leave (to London) or captured when there bases were overrun. The reason is, probibly, that countries don't want to talk about their losses that might be cosidered inglorious, it sounds better to say we have 20 or 100 aces instead of 5 pilots were killed in the operations shack. With the way the US paid particular attention to Japananies (sorry about the spelling) airfields you know their pilot losses had to be high. How may Japananies were lost a Midway because they did not have a carrier to land on?? The Japananies also had very high scoring aces. Everyone discount these score because they were against an infieror Air Force (China). The German high scores are due to the same reasons. Long service times for pilots, oboslete enemy A/C, poor enemy air doctoren, and superior training all contribute to the high scores.
[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]
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Charles2222
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Check this:Saburo Sakai Dead
Saburo Sakai, Ace of the Zero fighter died on Sept 26 at age 84 from a heart attack.
Sakai was the highest scoring Japanese Naval pilot to survive the war, with 64 confirmed kills. Sakai scored 60 of these victories during the "Runaway Victory" period of the war, and was then badly shot up during the first day's fighting over Guadalcanal. Largely blinded and mostly delilious from his wounds and loss of blood, Saburo Sakai managed to fly his A6M2/21 the 600 miles back to Rabaul, and safely land his mauled aircraft.
His fellow aces of the famed Tainan Ku were stunned by this feat of flying, having long since given him up for dead by the time he returned to base. After undergoing grueling and extremely painful eye surgery that he was required to remain concious for, Sakai was sent back to the Home Islands for recovery. He had permanently lost sight in one eye, and had only partial sight in the other.
Gaining his wings in the "China Incident" in 1940, he was among the first pilots to fly the Zero, gaining some small success after nearly being shot down in his very first engagement ! Such experience would prove invaluable to him and many other Japanese pilots when facing the mostly green Allied flyers in the early days of the war.
During the desperate times of late 1944, the great need for pilots resulted in Sakai again being assigned to a combat unit to help defend the island of Iwo Jima. During the pre-invasion raids while the Americans were building up their invasion force, Sakai fought in several battles leading mostly green pilots against the now veteran American Navy fliers and their F6F Hellcat fighters.
Even with his blindness and other physical restrictions that were the results of his earlier wounds, Sakai would shoot down four more enemy planes during this period while continuing to fly the now badly outmoded Zero fighter. In one of these engagements Sakai single handedly fought an entire squadron of Hellcats and tangled with them for an extended time until the pilots either ran low on fuel or were driven off by anti-aircraft fire from the island, which Sakai had at last managed to lure the Americans into range of. Again his compatriots were amazed by a feat of flying they had never even dreamed off. How many pilots could have survived combat against and entire enemy squadron of superior aircraft?
Withdrawn from the Island just a few days before the invasion, Sakai ended the war like many other Japanese pilots, preparing for a suicide attack against the Allied invasion armadas that were expected at any moment. After the war, Saburo Sakai would later write a best selling autobiography called "Samurai!".
In recent years Sakai was honored in the Netherlands and brought there for a specific incident in which he had spared a Dutch transport full of women and children. He had flown closely parralell to the DC-3, and seen a woman with a child on her lap looking out the window at him with her hands before her in prayer. Even his compatriots considered this a valiant act and the showing of true Samurai spirit by not attacking the defenseless. A Dutch television station managed to track down that woman and reunite them on air during his recent visit there.
His final statement on the Pacific War was released about 18 months ago in Japan, a new book that has to date been published only in Japan and Taiwan. He ruffled many feathers among the "old boys" of the Imperial Navy, accusing the officers of doing almost no flying and stating that the bulk of the risk, exposure and credit was due to the enlisted men and warrant officers who flew.
He further stated the officer corps was guilty of negligence because by not flying much in combat, the result was that they never fully understood the lackings of the Japanese aircraft as they became more and more outclassed, and the needs of the frontline pilots. These are stunning accusations from one so revered by the Japanese, and who's word is so respected, especially since he apparently backs the claims with much evidence.
Many pilots were incensed for instance, that there was not system of accelerated promotion or other reward for combat pilots who showed great ability and success. While the midget submarine crews who went into Pearl Harbor were given the national status of War Gods, those flyers who were shot down in the attack received no special recognition or credit.
That was from http://www.star-games.com/pages/news.html
They said he was the top scoring surviving navy pilot. I suppose the guy with the 87 wasn't Navy or didn't survive the war (or both).
[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]
[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]
Saburo Sakai, Ace of the Zero fighter died on Sept 26 at age 84 from a heart attack.
Sakai was the highest scoring Japanese Naval pilot to survive the war, with 64 confirmed kills. Sakai scored 60 of these victories during the "Runaway Victory" period of the war, and was then badly shot up during the first day's fighting over Guadalcanal. Largely blinded and mostly delilious from his wounds and loss of blood, Saburo Sakai managed to fly his A6M2/21 the 600 miles back to Rabaul, and safely land his mauled aircraft.
His fellow aces of the famed Tainan Ku were stunned by this feat of flying, having long since given him up for dead by the time he returned to base. After undergoing grueling and extremely painful eye surgery that he was required to remain concious for, Sakai was sent back to the Home Islands for recovery. He had permanently lost sight in one eye, and had only partial sight in the other.
Gaining his wings in the "China Incident" in 1940, he was among the first pilots to fly the Zero, gaining some small success after nearly being shot down in his very first engagement ! Such experience would prove invaluable to him and many other Japanese pilots when facing the mostly green Allied flyers in the early days of the war.
During the desperate times of late 1944, the great need for pilots resulted in Sakai again being assigned to a combat unit to help defend the island of Iwo Jima. During the pre-invasion raids while the Americans were building up their invasion force, Sakai fought in several battles leading mostly green pilots against the now veteran American Navy fliers and their F6F Hellcat fighters.
Even with his blindness and other physical restrictions that were the results of his earlier wounds, Sakai would shoot down four more enemy planes during this period while continuing to fly the now badly outmoded Zero fighter. In one of these engagements Sakai single handedly fought an entire squadron of Hellcats and tangled with them for an extended time until the pilots either ran low on fuel or were driven off by anti-aircraft fire from the island, which Sakai had at last managed to lure the Americans into range of. Again his compatriots were amazed by a feat of flying they had never even dreamed off. How many pilots could have survived combat against and entire enemy squadron of superior aircraft?
Withdrawn from the Island just a few days before the invasion, Sakai ended the war like many other Japanese pilots, preparing for a suicide attack against the Allied invasion armadas that were expected at any moment. After the war, Saburo Sakai would later write a best selling autobiography called "Samurai!".
In recent years Sakai was honored in the Netherlands and brought there for a specific incident in which he had spared a Dutch transport full of women and children. He had flown closely parralell to the DC-3, and seen a woman with a child on her lap looking out the window at him with her hands before her in prayer. Even his compatriots considered this a valiant act and the showing of true Samurai spirit by not attacking the defenseless. A Dutch television station managed to track down that woman and reunite them on air during his recent visit there.
His final statement on the Pacific War was released about 18 months ago in Japan, a new book that has to date been published only in Japan and Taiwan. He ruffled many feathers among the "old boys" of the Imperial Navy, accusing the officers of doing almost no flying and stating that the bulk of the risk, exposure and credit was due to the enlisted men and warrant officers who flew.
He further stated the officer corps was guilty of negligence because by not flying much in combat, the result was that they never fully understood the lackings of the Japanese aircraft as they became more and more outclassed, and the needs of the frontline pilots. These are stunning accusations from one so revered by the Japanese, and who's word is so respected, especially since he apparently backs the claims with much evidence.
Many pilots were incensed for instance, that there was not system of accelerated promotion or other reward for combat pilots who showed great ability and success. While the midget submarine crews who went into Pearl Harbor were given the national status of War Gods, those flyers who were shot down in the attack received no special recognition or credit.
That was from http://www.star-games.com/pages/news.html
They said he was the top scoring surviving navy pilot. I suppose the guy with the 87 wasn't Navy or didn't survive the war (or both).
[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]
[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]
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Charles2222
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Here's a small excerpt from Aces of the Reich which I mentioned earlier, by Gordon Williamson pg 92-93:
Still later, the book points out the system working off the number of engines in rewarding medals to pilots.
The book later mentions that the Luftwaffe totaled about 25,000 German fighter pilots were either killed, wounded or reported missing in action, and well over twice that amount of aircraft lost.The Lufwaffe's system of verifying kills was very strict indeed and precluded any large-scale exaggeration of claims. Eacj victory was supposed to be verified by at least one ground and one air witness,unless of course the kill took place over German-held territory and the wreckage of the downed aircraft provided irrefutable proof that a kill had been made. Alternatively, if the pilot or crew of the enemy aircraft succeeded in baling out and safely reaching the ground and were taken prisoner, this would also be acceptable evidence that a kill had been made. Each victory claim, with it's supporting paperwork had to be submitted to the Air Ministry for final confirmation. The pilot's Geschwader would then be advised that the claim had been approved, and the pilot informed of his confirmed kill. No one could accuse the Luftwaffe of not being thorough.
Similarly, when two aircraft combined to shoot down an enemy, only one could be credited with the kill. There was no such thing as a shared kill in the Luftwaffe. In the case of dispute, the Geschwader itself rather than the individual pilot, would be given the credit. With reasonable certainty, therefore, that onlu one credit was ever given for one plane destroyed, and no shared kills or probables beiong credited, it is in fact more likely that many scores claimed and approved were in fact understated rather than exagerrated.
It is signifigant that from 1939 to 1945, German fighters claimed approximately 25,000 victories against the Western Allies. Admitted Allied losses, however, were in the region of 40,000. Clearly then, German kill claims were not exaggerated in any way. On the Eastern Front about 45,000 kills were claimed. No official enemy loss figures are available, but some sources suggest that at least 75,000 may have been lost between 1941 and 1945.
Still later, the book points out the system working off the number of engines in rewarding medals to pilots.
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Colonel von Blitz
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Nowadays I believe Juutilainen is credited with 94 victories, not sure about that though.Originally posted by Cyric:
Flightmaster Eino I. Juutilainen 92 kills
I may be a bit biased as I am Finnish myself
but I'm quite willing to say that "Illu" Juutilainen is one of the best pilots ever...this may not be indicated by his tally, which is quite low if compared to some german pilots like Hartmann, Rall, Bär, Nowotny etc. But there are other ways to determine someones skill: one has to remember that Eino "Illu" Juutilainen never got shot down by enemy aircraft and moreover, no enemy aircraft EVER score a single hit to a plane flown by Eino Juutilainen!!! (some hits were sometimes absorbed but that was ground fire and/or AA)Also, some of his kills were achieved flying out of date aircraft like Fokker D.XXI (2 1/6 kills during Winter War) and Brewster Buffalo (33 or 34 kills, depending on source).
Colonel von Blitz
PS. If someone outside Finland is interested about "Illu" Juutilainen, check out this book: Double Fighter Knight (by Juutilainen himself), ISBN: 952-5026-04-3
[ July 14, 2001: Message edited by: Colonel von Blitz ]
--Light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak--
At least Rudel had these problems, although he was not an fighter pilot. Hitler demanded several times that he had to come back to Germany and become an instructor, but Rudel said to Hitler that he won't take his medals if he is not allowed to fly.I seem to remember something about this where some of the leading German aces would give their kill to other pilots or actually not take credit for some kills so as to NOT be sent back as an instructor. Can't remember where I read it.
-Jappe