Ok to Jap Fanboys (and girls) How far will you go!

[moses]

Oh I won't get upset if my opponent has one or two little extras landings in there.

But I think of the the challenges of the game is to take the SRA effeciently against opposition. If you take big chunks of it on turn one and totally undermine the defense from the start. Whats the challenge in that.

[Dutchgy2000]

lol... the challenge is in trying to keep hold of it it for the next 2 (game) years

[ChezDaJez]

That's why you have the option of turning off Dec 7th surprise. If both agree, then that's cool but if you are playing with Dec 7th surprise then the Jap player should be allowed to conduct any feasible operation that was historically and realistically possible.


Consider this. Suppose that Japan never attacked Pearl Harbor IRL and concentrated on the PI instead. Would you then consider it "gamey" or an unfair use of assetts if the Jap player attacked Pearl Harbor in the game on turn 1?


Chez

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

That's why you have the option of turning off Dec 7th surprise. If both agree, then that's cool but if you are playing with Dec 7th surprise then the Jap player should be allowed to conduct any feasible operation that was historically and realistically possible.


Consider this. Suppose that Japan never attacked Pearl Harbor IRL and concentrated on the PI instead. Would you then consider it "gamey" or an unfair use of assetts if the Jap player attacked Pearl Harbor in the game on turn 1?


Chez

Well the problem would be what was historically and realistically possible. According to pretty much everyone at that time an attack on Pearl WAS realistically impossible... and still it happened.

I don´t doubt that if history showed that japan attacked PI like you say and not Pearl, and someone in turn one send a taskforce out to bomb Pearl, we would all be sitting here saying that that would be historically and realistically impossible [:)]

[mlees]

The PH raiding force was able to do what it did (surprise Pearl) because it sailed towards Pearl in vast empty northern Pacific waters, far away from nosy Naval Patrol aircraft. That's completely different than a 5-10 ship force headed for Balikpapan or Kendari, which are in very busy water ways, and amongst busy airways.

Just because Pearl was surprised does not mean that Japan could surprise everone, everywhere, every time. And I'm sure that in the example given by medicff above we are NOT talking about single ship invasion forces. The above example is not "historical", or "reasonable". IMHumbleO, the Japanese player above severly bent the "surprise" rule to his best effect.

That said, I would probably soldier on, to see if I could pull my chestnuts out of the fire. If, however, the opponent continued to use "gamey" tactics (like blocking retreats with sub transported LCU fragments), I would eventually lose interest, and resign.

[Dutchgy2000]

True, although those who use the ´stay out of patrol aircraft reach´ argument should not actually allow an attack on Pearl either if they wanna be consistent.

Now about what is historical or reasonable. the whole point of this game (to me) is not to be to historical or I might as well just watch a documentary, atleast then the battles happen when and where they happened and with the historical outcome (obviously).

1, 2, 3 , 4, 5 ships... doensn´t make much difference, they don´t have to go there conspiciously in convoy... they just have to be at the designated landing spot at the same time, they could all arive independent if need be. I doubt before dec 7th even in a busy patrolled lane and noticed anyone was going to blow a few seperate ships out of the water.. or actually ´especially´ in a busy area, after all, a lot of legitimate reasons to actually be there. and after dec 7th, good luck finding them at night, and in the morning they will be landing.... and then its´s your turn anyway. the problem only starts when ya send in a heavy convoy, probably with support... now thats wayyyy to obvious.

As for ´gamey´ tactics... the japanese actually did drop smal forces behind enemy lines (in the dutch east indies) confincing everyone it was a big force and forcing them to surrender or at least retreat. Now in game turms i aggree again this is kinda ´gamey´ but only because you ´know´ its not a big force, the hexes are to big a scale for that to influence a whole battle... and in game terms there is ony one result... your forces get anihalated. Then again it is up to you to prepare for such events, after all.. this is war [;)]

[medicff]

ORIGINAL: mlees

That said, I would probably soldier on, to see if I could pull my chestnuts out of the fire. If, however, the opponent continued to use "gamey" tactics (like blocking retreats with sub transported LCU fragments), I would eventually lose interest, and resign.

Well I am going to try to see if I can still pull off with different strategy than usual. (talk about changes on the fly). I have pretty well written off salvaging much of anything from PI. I had one small victory as Force Z engaged the Borneo landing on the way from harm. He is trying paradrops into Clark for some reason, probably to stop my consolidation but when they shock attack they are retreated each time. One thing about this game is it isn't boring. [:)]

[mlees]

Rationalise all you want. I respectfully disagree.[;)]

[medicff]

ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000


1, 2, 3 , 4, 5 ships... doensn´t make much difference, they don´t have to go there conspiciously in convoy... they just have to be at the designated landing spot at the same time, they could all arive independent if need be. I doubt before dec 7th even in a busy patrolled lane and noticed anyone was going to blow a few seperate ships out of the water.. or actually ´especially´ in a busy area, after all, a lot of legitimate reasons to actually be there. and after dec 7th, good luck finding them at night, and in the morning they will be landing.... and then its´s your turn anyway. the problem only starts when ya send in a heavy convoy, probably with support... now thats wayyyy to obvious.

Each of the landings were at least 10-20 transports (to unload quickly) and included several support warships.

[moses]

I never said it was gamey it just not the kind of game I want either as Japan or Allied. The first part of the game is defending or attacking the SRA. This requires some skill to do well for either side and is one of the fun challenges of the game.

Now if I'm playing allied and you take Kendari and Palembang on the first couple turns you got air cover over the whole SRA and the only rational thing for me to do is pull out as quick as possible. The battles over. there's not much play left in this phase of the game just an allied rout. No skill, no fun for either player. Plus the sence of role playing is lost.

I just don't want this kind of game so I'll only play those who are of similar views.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: moses

I never said it was gamey it just not the kind of game I want either as Japan or Allied. The first part of the game is defending or attacking the SRA. This requires some skill to do well for either side and is one of the fun challenges of the game.

Now if I'm playing allied and you take Kendari and Palembang on the first couple turns you got air cover over the whole SRA and the only rational thing for me to do is pull out as quick as possible. The battles over. there's not much play left in this phase of the game just an allied rout. No skill, no fun for either player. Plus the sence of role playing is lost.

I just don't want this kind of game so I'll only play those who are of similar views.

Well then i guess we view the game in different ways. As Japan the whole point would be to convince the Allies the rational thing to do is to pull out. The sooner the battle is over the better.. thats the whole idea behind the war in the first place, ya can´t roleplay it better then that. Making it ´fun´ for the allies now that would be ´gamey´ strategically... not only tactically.

[mlees]

1, 2, 3 , 4, 5 ships... doensn´t make much difference, they don´t have to go there conspiciously in convoy... they just have to be at the designated landing spot at the same time, they could all arive independent if need be. I doubt before dec 7th even in a busy patrolled lane and noticed anyone was going to blow a few seperate ships out of the water.. or actually ´especially´ in a busy area, after all, a lot of legitimate reasons to actually be there.

Actually,now that I think on this some more...

A peacetime navy has nothing to do but float around looking for suspicious ships (smugglers, pirates, invasion forces, etc). If you notice the "at start" position of some of the Allied ships, they are at sea in the SRA, doing just that. They don't need to blow a single suspicious ship out of the water without a DOW, but they will shadow it. As soon as things get more dicey, they will attempt to enforce international (or territorial) laws, boarding them, and seeing all those guys standing in the cargo hold chain smoking...

[Feinder]

Well then i guess we view the game in different ways. As Japan the whole point would be to convince the Allies the rational thing to do is to pull out.

Hrumph. This is what happens when you fight for SRA and Solomons as Allies...
(as of 02-11-42 in PBEM)

Fuso BB 1x Torp 01-04-42
Haruna BB 1x Torp 12-08-41
Ise BB 2x Torp 01-07-42
Kongo BB 2x Torp 01-11-42
1x Bomb 01-09-42
1x Bomb 12-23-41
Mutsu BB 1x Torp 12-23-41
Nagato BB 1x Torp 12-23-41
Hyuga BB 1x Mine 12-29-41
Yamashiro BB 1x Bomb 01-20-42





Aoba CA 1x Shell 12-17-41
Ashigara CA 1x Bomb 01-16-42
1x Bomb 01-15-42
Chokai CA 1x Bomb 01-09-42
1x Bomb 12-15-41
Furutaka CA 3x Shell 12-17-41
Haguro CA 1x Torp 01-18-42
Kako CA 21x Shell 12-18-41 Sunk
15x Shell 12-17-41
Kinugasa CA 3x Shell 12-17-41
Kumano CA 1x Mine 01-31-42
Maya CA 1x Torp 01-02-42
Mogami CA 1x Torp 12-24-41
1x Bomb 12-22-41
Myoko CA 1x Shell 12-29-41
Nachi CA 2x Torp, 1x Bomb 01-18-42





Isuzu CL 1x Bomb 12-21-41
Kashii CL 1x Shell, 1x Bomb 12-19-41
Kashima CL 9x Shell 12-18-41
Katori CL 4x Shell 12-17-41
Kiso CL 2x Shell 12-16-41
Kitakami CL 1x Torp 01-19-42
Nagara CL 7x Shell 12-23-41
Naka CL 2x Bomb 01-06-41
Tama CL 10x Shell 12-17-41 Sunk
Tatsuta CL 1x Bomb 12-08-41
Tenryu CL 2x Bomb 12-08-41
Yubari CL 1x Bomb 12-08-41
3x Shell 12-17-41




Akebono DD 1x Shell 12-16-41
Arashi DD 2x Shell 12-12-41
Ariake DD 20x Shell, 2x Torp 12-17-41 Sunk
Asagumo DD 3x Shell 12-18-41
Asakaze DD 1x Torp 01-24-42
Asanagi DD 3x Shell, 2x Torp 01-09-42 Sunk
3x Shell 01-08-42
Ayanami DD 1x Bomb, 2x Torp 12-31-41 Sunk
Fumizuki DD 1x Bomb 01-15-42
Hatsukari DD 1x Torp 01-12-42 Sunk
Hatsukaze DD 4x Shell 12-23-41
Hatsuyuki DD 1x Torp 01-09-42 Sunk
1x Bomb 01-06-41
Kamikaze DD 3x Shell 12-16-41
Kari DD 1x Shell 02-09-42
Kasasagi DD 1x Shell 12-22-41
Kawakaze DD 4x Shell 12-12-41
Kikuzuki DD 13x Shell 12-17-41 Sunk
Mikazuki DD 7x Shell 12-23-41
Mochizuki DD 7x Shell 12-17-41
Murakumo DD 1x Shell 02-01-42
Murasame DD 1x Bomb 01-31-42
2x Shell 12-18-41
Mutsuki DD 2x Shell 12-07-41
Namikaze DD 51x Shell 12-18-41 Sunk
5x Shell 12-17-41
Natsugumo DD 3x Shell 12-18-41
Natsushio DD 11x Shell 02-06-42 Sunk
Nenohi DD 2x Shell 02-03-42
Nokaze DD 9x Shell, 1x Torp 12-17-41 Sunk
Nowaki DD 1x Mine 12-12-41
Numakaze DD 14x Shell 12-17-41 Sunk
Oboro DD 7x Shell 12-18-41 Sunk
1x Shell 12-17-41
Okikaze DD 3x Shell 12-16-41 Sunk
Samidare DD 2x Shell 12-18-41
Shigure DD 8x Shell 12-17-41 Sunk
Shikinami DD 12x Shell 01-31-42
Shinonome DD 1x Mine, 1x Bomb 02-02-42
Shirakumo DD 2x Bomb, 1x Torp 12-15-41 Sunk
1x Torp 12-14-41
Shiratsuyu DD 1x Shell 12-17-41 Sunk
Suzukaze DD 3x Shell 12-12-41 Sunk
Tokitsukaze DD 18x Shell 02-06-42 Sunk
Umikaze DD 17x Shell, 1x Torp 12-12-41 Sunk
Ushio DD 2x Bomb, 3x Torp 12-11-41 Sunk
Uzuki DD 9x Shell 12-18-41 Sunk
1x Shell 12-17-41
Yamakaze DD 14x Shell 02-06-42 Sunk
1x Bomb 01-15-42
Yayoi DD 4x Shell 12-17-41
Yukikaze DD 2x Shell 12-27-41
Yugiri DD 2x Bomb 12-31-41
Yugure DD 18x Shell 12-17-41 Sunk
2x Shell 12-16-41




Chosa Maru PG 1x Torp 01-12-42
Eifuku Maru PG 1x Mine 01-06-41
Eiko Maru PG 2x Shell, 1x Torp 12-20-41
Hashidate PG 1x Bomb 12-16-41
Ikunta Maru PG 5x Shell 12-17-41 Sunk
Muro Maru PG 6x Shell, 2x Torp 12-20-41 Sunk
Sozan Maru PG 5x Shell 12-20-41
Taiko Maru PG 6x Shell 02-01-42
3x Shell 01-28-42





Ch 7 PC 1x Shell 12-07-41
Ch 8 PC 1x Mine 01-07-42 Sunk
Ch 12 PC 4x Bomb 01-28-42 Sunk
Ch 13 PC 1x Bomb 01-20-42 Sunk
Shimushu PC 1x Torp 12-18-41 Sunk
Shonan Maru #7 PC 1x Bomb 12-25-41
Showa Maru #3 PC 1x Bomb 01-13-42
Takuna Maru #6 PC 3x Shell 12-16-41 Sunk
Takunan Maru #5 PC 6x Bomb 01-23-42 Sunk





Gyoraitei #2 PT 4x Shell 01-28-42





Ataka Maru MSW 2x Torp 12-15-41 Sunk
Rokko Maru MSW 5x Bomb 01-27-42 Sunk
Takasago Maru MSW 5x Bomb 01-28-42 Sunk
Toshi Maru #2 MSW 1x Bomb 01-29-42 Sunk
1x Bomb 01-27-42
Wa 3 MSW 1x Bomb 01-09-42
1x Shell 01-07-42





Tokiwa ML 1x Torp 01-11-42 Sunk





I-3 SS 2x DC 01-16-42 Sunk
I-4 SS 3x DC 12-09-41 Sunk
I-6 SS 3x DC 12-10-41 Sunk
1x Bomb 12-09-41
I-9 SS 4x DC 12-10-41 Sunk
I-18 SS 6x DC 01-15-42 Sunk
I-20 SS 2x DC 12-18-41
I-22 SS 1x DC 01-19-42
I-23 SS 4x DC 12-14-41 Sunk
I-24 SS 4x DC 01-30-42 Sunk
I-26 SS 4x DC 12-21-41 Sunk
I-124 SS 1x Bomb 01-18-42
I-156 SS 5x DC 12-13-41 Sunk
I-158 SS 4x DC 12-11-41 Sunk
I-164 SS 2x DC 12-14-41 Sunk
I-171 SS 5x DC 12-09-41 Sunk
I-173 SS 2x DC 01-07-42
I-174 SS 4x DC 12-23-41 Sunk
I-175 SS 1x Bomb 12-10-41
RO-61 SS 6x DC 02-04-42
RO-65 SS 4x DC 02-11-42 Sunk





Akebono Maru TK 5x Bomb 12-13-41 Sunk
4x Bomb 12-11-41
Goyo Maru TK 1x Torp 01-20-42 Sunk
Ken'yo Maru TK 5x Bomb 12-13-41 Sunk
3x Bomb 12-11-41
Kokuyo Maru TK 4x Bomb, 1x Torp 12-11-41 Sunk
Kyokuto Maru TK 11x Shell 12-16-41 Sunk
Nihon Maru TK 7x Bomb 12-11-41 Sunk
Ogura Maru #3 TK 1x Bomb 01-28-42
Shinkoku Maru TK 5x Bomb 12-11-41 Sunk
Toei Maru TK 7x Bomb 12-13-41 Sunk
2x Bomb 12-11-41
Toho Maru TK 4x Bomb, 1x Torp 12-11-41 Sunk





Aikoku Maru AP 1x Torp 02-04-42
Arizana Maru AP 1x Bomb 01-26-42
Atsuta Maru AP 1x Bomb 01-29-42
Atuta Maru AP 2x Bomb 02-11-42
Baikal Maru AP 4x Shell, 2x Bomb 02-11-42
Bokuyo Maru AP 1x Torp 12-15-41
Chojun Maru AP 1x Bomb 01-24-42
Choko Maru AP 1x Torp 01-17-42 Sunk
1x Bomb 01-12-42
Daaban Maru AP 1x Bomb 01-21-42
Daifuku Maru AP 2x Torp 12-11-41 Sunk
Giyu Maru AP 1x Bomb 01-09-42
Gotake Maru AP 1x Bomb 01-24-42
Hakka Maru AP 1x Torp 01-19-42 Sunk
1x Torp 01-15-42
1x Bomb 01-14-42
Hakutetsu Maru #13 AP 1x Bomb 01-07-42
Higashiyama Maru AP 1x Bomb 12-14-41
Hikade Maru AP 1x Bomb 12-15-41
Hokuhi Maru AP 1x Bomb 12-14-41
Hokusho Maru AP 1x Torp 12-20-41 Sunk
Hokutatsu Maru AP 1x Torp 12-23-41
Hukuyo Maru AP 1x Torp 01-26-42
Iburi Maru AP 1x Bomb 12-11-41
Imizu Maru AP 3x Torp 12-14-41 Sunk
Iwaki Maru AP 1x Bomb 01-10-42
Jinsai Maru AP 1x Torp 12-30-41
Jusan Maru AP 2x Torp 12-21-41 Sunk
Kaedesan Maru AP 1x Shell 02-07-42
Kaihei Maru AP 1x Bomb 01-11-42
1x Bomb 01-08-42
Kagi Maru AP 1x Bomb 02-02-42
Kaika Maru AP 2x Bomb 12-14-41
Kanayamasan Maru AP 2x Bomb 02-02-42
Karimo Maru AP 2x Bomb 02-02-42
Kashi Maru AP 4x Shell 01-23-42
Kasuga Maru AP 1x Torp 12-28-41
Kasui Maru AP 2x Bomb 01-24-42
Kenshin Maru AP 2x Shell 02-09-42
Kikuryu Maru AP 4x Bomb 01-21-42
Kinryu Maru AP 3x Bomb 12-08-41 Sunk
Kiri Maru AP 2x Shell 01-26-42
8x Shell 01-25-42
Kizan Maru AP 1x Mine 02-09-42
Koei Maru AP 2x Torp 12-20-41 Sunk
Kogi Maru AP 3x Bomb 02-02-42
Kokuryu Maru AP 1x Bomb 02-02-42
2x Bomb 02-01-42
Koshu Maru #3 AP 1x Bomb 01-24-42
Kotobuki Maru #3 AP 1x Shell 12-16-41
Kozui Maru AP 4x Shell 02-11-42
Kyosei Maru AP 2x Bomb 02-02-42
Meikai Maru AP 1x Shell, 2x Torp 12-18-41 Sunk
1x Bomb 12-17-41
Meiten Maru AP 2x Bomb 01-31-42
Meiu Maru AP 1x Bomb 01-31-42
Minryo Maru AP 1x Torp 12-17-41 Sunk
1x Torp 12-14-41
Mitsu Maru #3 AP 2x Bomb 02-02-42
Miyako Maru AP 1x Torp 12-20-41
Nachisan Maru AP 20x Shell 01-28-42
Neikai Mar AP 2x Shell, 1x Torp 12-20-41
Nissen Maru #2 AP 1x Torp 01-01-41
1x Mine 12-23-41
Otori Maru AP 2x Torp, 1x Bomb 02-01-42 Sunk
Ryugi Maru AP 1x Torp 12-21-41 Sunk
1x Torp 12-18-41
Shinkoku Maru AP 1x Bomb 12-17-41 Sunk
Shintoku Maru AP 2x Shell 12-17-41
Shirogane Maru AP 1x Torp 12-22-41
Taimei Maru AP 12x Shell 01-23-42
Takayo Maru AP 1x Bomb 01-29-42
Tama Maru AP 1x Torp 12-12-41
Tamatsu Maru AP 2x Torp 12-18-41 Sunk
3x Bomb 12-17-41
1x Bomb 12-16-41
Tatuharu Maru AP 8x Shell 12-17-41 Sunk
Teiun Maru AP 1x Mine, 1x Bomb 01-13-42
Tenryu Maru AP 1x Torp 02-09-42
Tensyo Maru AP 5x Bomb 01-21-42 Sunk
1x Torp 01-20-42
Tenyo Maru AP 1x Torp 12-17-41 Sunk
Tenzan Maru AP 1x Torp 12-22-41
Tohuku Maru AP 1x Torp 01-18-42 Sunk
Uji Maru AP 5x Shell 12-17-41
Yamakisan Maru AP 1x Torp 12-19-41 Sunk





Akashi Maru AK 1x Bomb 01-20-42
Akita Maru AK 1x Shell 12-23-41
2x Shell 12-08-41
Anbo Maru AK 2x Bomb 01-23-42
Asakasan Maru AK 1x Torp 12-12-41 Sunk
3x Bomb 12-11-41
Asuka Maru AK 3x Shell 12-21-41
Genmei Maru AK 2x Bomb 01-07-42
Hikosan Maru AK 1x Shell, 3x Torp 12-15-41 Sunk
Hozan Maru #5 AK 1x Torp 01-08-42
Iwashiro Maru AK 1x Torp 12-15-41 Sunk
Kaimei Maru AK 2x Torp 12-19-41 Sunk
Kinryo Maru AK 1x Torp 12-22-41 Sunk
1x Torp 12-19-41
Kongo Maru AK 12x Shell 12-09-41
Toba Maru AK 2x Bomb 01-15-42

[Dutchgy2000]

Ok, so you find one ship... it sees you... turns around or takes a long route home while warning the others with some kinda code... so your ´shaddowing´ warship is out of position and the others land as planned... just one write off... not to bad. It´s not anyone is gonna plant a big flag all over them and announcing their arrival... its a big ocean.

Proof of my point... to many ´what ifs´ to ever cover with any kind of rules.. there´s always an... ´yes but what if´

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Hrumph. This is what happens when you fight for SRA and Solomons as Allies...
(as of 02-11-42)

.....

lol.. yep.. that´s one way of doing it [X(]

[mlees]

Well then i guess we view the game in different ways. As Japan the whole point would be to convince the Allies the rational thing to do is to pull out. The sooner the battle is over the better.. thats the whole idea behind the war in the first place, ya can´t roleplay it better then that. Making it ´fun´ for the allies now that would be ´gamey´ strategically... not only tactically.

So, if Japan doesn't win the war, it isn't "fun" or "right"? Hmm. I don't see it that way.

The Japanese player will run wild for six months to a year, then he/she will be slowly crushed by overwhelming Allied production. Japan loses the war. Period. The Task, as the Japanese player, is to see how well he can do with the forces and time given. Compare yourself to Historical benchmarks (Japan's economy collapses by early '45) or by player personal best. The Japanese player can "win the game" without "winning the war". Two players on cordial terms with each other can come to some agreement on who did well, and who did not do as well.

If you, as a player, cannot have "fun" without completely trashing the opponent, and send him home to his momma, play the late war scenerio as the Allied player. (As a bnonus, you don't have to put up with the frustrating production system.)

Man! I had to type this three times! The forum keeps dropping me out offline, and won't take my post as guest...

[ChezDaJez]

Mogami said:

Hi, Please go back and study Dec 7 again.
The planes in PI were not STILL on the ground. They were on the ground AGAIN.
They had taken off in the ealry hours when attack on PH was learned of and they returned to refuel just in time to be caught by Japanese. (The Japanese attack was delayed by fog at Japanese airfields)
If the Japanese had attacked on time the fields in PI would have been empty. If the Japanese attack had been a little later the fields in PI would have been empty (AGAIN)

Some B-17s were launched without bomblaods and with orders to patrol the waters around Luzon. They launched around 0730 and were recalled less than 3 hours later. Berenton then held them on the ground waiting for permission from MacArthur to attack Formosa. The order never came.

As far as the Japanese attack being delayed, it was due to inclement weather over the targets in the PI. This attack was orginally planned to be on target at 0630. The bombers would still have been on the ground.

Here are some interesting quotes from "The Army Air Forces in World War II, Book 1, Chapter 6 "Plans and Early Operations: January 1939 to August 1942." by W.F. Kraven and J.L. Cate. Bold font is mine.

Had the Japanese been able to keep to their schedule, the attack on the Philippines would have coincided much more closely than it did with that at Pearl Harbor. But inclement weather above Luzon delayed execution of the plan for an early morning attack, and gave the Americans advance notice of several hours. In fact, the major attack on Clark Field, where virtually half of our total bombing force was destroyed on the ground, did not develop until after noon, some nine hours following the initial bombing of Oahu.

So what were they doing during this time? Berenton appears to be the only wanted that wanted action.

A plan of action which had been considered for this eventuality by the Far East Air Force was an American air attack against Formosa, the natural point of concentration for a Japanese invasion of the Philippines. Objective folders, although without calibrated bomb target maps or aerial photographs, had been prepared, and Col. Francis M. Brady, chief of staff to General Brereton, promptly took the initial step toward mounting the operation by ordering the B-17's at Clark Field prepared for the mission. Brereton himself reported at about 0500 to General MacArthur's headquarters at Fort Santiago, where he requested permission of Brig. Gen. Richard K. Sutherland, chief of staff, to carry out offensive action as soon as possible after daylight.

and what did Sunderland do? He blamed Berenton for the lack of action.

The record of an interview by Walter D. Edmons with Lt. Gen. Richard K. Sutherland in Manila on 4 June 1945 (copy supplied the author through the courtesy of Mr. Edmonds) reads on the question of "Why was Formosa not bombed?" as follows:

Gen. Sutherland began by saying that all the B-17s had been ordered to Del Monte some days before. On a check it was found that only half had been sent. GHQ wanted the planes in Del Monte because they would there have been safe from initial Jap attacks--they could not have been reached at all--and they could themselves have staged out of Clark Field to bomb Formosa. This direct order had not been obeyed. And it must be remembered that GHQ gave out general orders and that the AFHq were supposed to execute them. As Sutherland recalls, there was some plan to bomb Formosa, but Brereton said that he had to have Photos first. That there was no sense in going up there to bomb without knowing what they were going after. There were some 25 fields on Formosa. Holding the bombers at Clark Field that first day was entirely due to Brereton.

And what was MacArthur doing? Nothing.

The official US Army history, published in 1952, gives greater weight to Brereton's version than the Sutherland/MacArthur version! Note particularly, the discrepancy in MacArthur's supposedly holding back the bombing attack in favor of a reconnaissance mission, then later the same day authorizing the bombing mission in spite of the lack of reconnaissance. Considering other events, and MacArthur's non-appearance throughout the morning of that critical day, this author believes that a plausible explanation is the MacArthur suffered at least a mild nervous breakdown upon receiving the news of Pearl Harbor--and realizing his inevitable defeat in the Philippines--and that Sutherland's primary task that morning was to get the "boss" to pull himself together and assume effective command. After the efforts that MacArthur had initiated to repudiate the long-standing strategy of 'delay-and-defend until the fleet could arrive to reinforce', in favor of an aggressive forward defense relying largely on the striking power of the B-17s he demanded, it boggles the mind to discover another believable explanation for his failure to even meet face-to-face with his air force chief that morning. Further evidence of his tenuous response to events is the continued commitment to a forward defense of the beaches, until precipitously abandoning those plans in favor of the retreat to Bataan immediately after the Japanese landing at Lingayen Gulf--too late to move the mountains of material needed to feed and support his army.

and so while everyone's playing "Pass the Buck."

From this point on, a confused record reflects chiefly the confusion and bad luck which attended the American air effort on that first day of hostilities in the Philippines. The Summary of Activities for Headquarters, Far East Air FOrce, notes: "11:56 General Brereton communicated with General Sutherland and complete report was given General Sutherland of the air situation at this time including fact that it was planned to move the B-17's now at Del Monte to San Marcelino and to bomb Taiwan fields at late afternoon today." Then the summary jumps to 1240 to record a report that "10 planes, 6,000 feet, nationality unknown, headed for Manila. This information from the Navy." Under 1255 appears another report that "large force of planes, about 25, heading south reported in vicinity of Tarlac at 12:25." Under 1257 one reads of a Japanese propaganda mission earlier in the day: "Said planes dropped leaflets which read as follows: Way to permanent peace causing this conflict between Japan and the U.S. Roosevelt attempt curve our independence stop we all know than unless the US has not oppressed Japan, this war has not been started stop Our mission is to end this war as fast as possible and in order to achieve this end we should cooperate with Japan fully unquote." Then: "13:00 Reported by G-2 that Fort Stotsenburg is being bombed"; and again--"13:00 Report received from Stotsenburg many bombers very high bombed Clark Field at 12:35 P.M."

So why wasn't Clark ready? Surely they would have fighters overhead, planes dispersed, and defenses manned but what happens:

In response to a specific question from the Air Historical Office which indicated the existence of information that a warning had been sent and acknowledged by Clark Field, General Eubank under date of 5 August 1947 made the following statement:

Information of the Japanese formation which attacked Clark Field about noon, 8 December 1941, was not received by the Bomber Command prior to the attack. The formation was almost directly overhead at the time the air raid warning siren was sounded and the bombs began exploding a few seconds thereafter. One or two false air raid warning messages had been received earlier in the day.

The point of all this is, in relation to the Japanese 1st turn bonus in the game, that just because you know they are coming doesn't mean you can do a damn thing about it when your leadership has their thumb up their arse trying to figure out something that should have been planned and practised well in advance.

Chez.

[jwilkerson]

This is why some of us won't play S15 .. but play S16 instead ... we call S16 the "Historical Start" scenario ... someone on this forum has a saying ( SONNY - I think ) ... if you mess with history - you will have ahistorical outcomes ... seems to apply in this case ...

Now if you're willing to live with the ahistorical outcomes then play S15 and have fun ... but don't complain ... or if like others you want to mitigate the ahistorical outcomes ... go with S16 ...

[mogami]

Hi, My turn 1 reinforcement nonhistorical scenario

[ChezDaJez]

Team him with Mothra and there is no way Japan loses!!!

Chez