How useful are early German 37mm HE rounds?

SPWaW is a tactical squad-level World War II game on single platoon or up to an entire battalion through Europe and the Pacific (1939 to 1945).

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pbhawkin1
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Post by pbhawkin1 »

Monte,

Just a thought.
If you have your tanks (PzIII's) working in sections (1-3 tanks) in order to cover each other, ie overwatch, then why not try at the end of your turn (and depending on the tactical situation) turning off 1 or 2 main guns so that only the MG's will op-fire. This allows 1-2 tanks to engage enemy inf with their full weight of MG fire while having 1-2 tanks with available main gun to op-fire any enemy AFV's. They can also use their MG's if no AFV's appear, on the inf as well.
Of course (as is usual) there is never enough resources to do everything that you want to do! :D
Regards
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kao16
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Post by kao16 »

pbhawkins


This sounds reasonable but.....

how do you remember which ones have their main gun enabled/disabled.

I often can't even remember which tank has been shooting at which tank when it comes to op-fire (sometimes the firing tank is outside the frame) - stopping changes of target that reduce/lose the accumulated accuracy gains of my previous firing turn.
Monte
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Post by Monte »

Kao16, there is a way to find that. Select the unit (any unit, works for infantry, as well) that you are interested in. Hit "T". Screen shows the last target that you fired (or op-fired) on. But don't press "N" to cycle through the targets, you will lose the benefit of the target acquisition from the previous turn.

pbhawkings, that might not work as you expect it should. Game engine decides on its own which one of your units will be given a chance to op-fire, right? I think that those tanks with operational main gun have preference when it comes to op-fire...
panda124c
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Post by panda124c »

Monte
The Germans considered the Tank an anti-Infantry weapon and the AT gun as an anti-Tank weapon. The British considered the Tank an anti-Tank weapon therefore it did not need any HE rounds. For infantry support the used the 3" gunned CS tanks and the Germans used the 75L24 in various platforms. The Americans did not have a dedicated infantry support until the 105 Sherman, (this should cause some responses).
The MK III is an excelent anti-infantry weapon due to it's three mgs. The Mk I is an excellent anti-infantry weapon but if you run into tanks the MK III is better because it can kill another tank as well as infantry. To demonstrate the effect of having a mg on your tank play some games with the Stum IIIb then when the e version (with the mg) is avaiable upgrade, you will see a radical increase in this vehicles effectivness.
The 88 is a find gun but it is a very big target and is easy to spot. It was found to be an excellent AT gun during the Spanish Civil War. It was the only gun the Germans had to counter the very heavy tanks early in the war. Use it at long range 20+ hexes to keep the chance of it being spotted low. If you don't have one it make for a very interesting game to stalk KV-1s with engineers.

As a side note, since I don't use the OpFire option I turn down the range on my tanks to about 5 so that if a unit gets that close the tank will op fire with main gun and mgs. This, of course, means that the tank will not fire at another tank over 5 hexes away. I adjust my tactics to compensate, by leaving my AT guns with a longer range setting since they are much harder to spot.

Using the OpFire setting in the Preferences will give you more control over what targets your guns shoot at, you do loose your targeting advantage if you switch targets. I was under the impression that you could choose which weapon to fire in OpFire guess I was wrong. Hope this helps.

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]
Tommy
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Post by Tommy »

Originally posted by Monte:
Reg at all,
My broken English is the cross of a sort here, but please read my postings on this topic once again. With all due respect, I know how to disable main gun and how to fire only MGs. It is the tendency to op-fire with HE rounds that I am trying to cope with. ...
Monte,

I think we obscured the answer to this question with overly complex answers and suggestions.

Your basic question: Can I stop my AFV from OP Firing on the Infantry with the main gun without disabling the main gun?

Your basic answer: No.

Tommy
Larry Holt
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Post by Larry Holt »

My understanding of the German ATG role is that their tanks would be the primary AT weapon but if they ran into difficulity they could withdraw behind a ATG line which would then deal with enemy armor. The 88s were designed to have a secondary AT role, it was not just a field expedient. On the east front, they had so few units and their ATGs were so inadequate that they had to pull them into the rear areas to build a defense in depth and take flank/rear shots against Soviet armor. This left the infantry to fend for themselves and they developed and trained small antitank teams to use grenades, mines, etc. as the primary infantry tank defense.
Never take counsel of your fears.
Monte
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Post by Monte »

I might have overdone it, so it is time to make a statement about SPWaW. From all my messages left on this topic, one might draw conclusion that I am in the business of flaming SPWaW and Matrix effort.

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM TRUTH.

I love what I see. It is wonderful. It is challenging, it is realistic, it gives a new life to already excellent SP concept (one of my favorite games ever, anyway), and I wouldn't argue if I didn't care. If it was not for the love affair :) with SPWaW, I would never come to this forum to say a word, simply because I don't have confidence in my language skills.

Having said that, let me return to the subject of this topic.

I already told you what stupid mistake I did, I planned to have a massive armor detachment in my core force. That's what "SP - the original" gamer would do. That's a serious mistake in SPWaW. I realized that quickly enough. But it would be cheating yourself if I gave up :). I clenched my teeth and tried to live with my decisions, even if it means ending up in coffin to pay for it. Reality of war. That’s what this thing is all about. That's why it is so addictive.

Another reason why I decided to stay in campaign is that new feature in SPWaW, where you can freely upgrade any unit class to anything else. If I live long enough, I might have a chance to replace some of that armor with infantry to create more balanced force.

I survived Poland, did extremely well in France and Low Countries, and had a lots of prestige points to upgrade my force. Now I am in the desert. If I was in Russia, my massive armor force would be slaughtered in no time. But I might just get away with it in desert, right? Wrong!

Right now, I have 39 (!!!) PzIIIEs in my core force, and that is how I learned to hate my guts for having them.

SPWaW is not a “tankies game” but it sure is a game of maneuver. And there are two parts in winning the maneuver game: use maneuver to position your forces where they are needed, and DENY your enemy a chance to maneuver his forces. I would argue that op-fire as a concept is crucial as a tool for denying maneuver to your enemy.

Guess what, if you have massive PzIIIE in your force, it is not only your vulnerability of the armor playing against you, you are denied a chance to effectively use Op-Fire in desert. 37 mm HE is not only useless in desert, it is a gift to your enemy. You raise a cloud of dust and previously spotted infantry disappears from your sight.

And why I am so loud about the Op-Fire? The very first scenario that I am playing in the desert is killing me. I call it “A thin red line”. It is “my advance against their delay” with British as opposing force. No mines, at least I haven’t seen them yet. British infantry has entrenched themselves in an unobstructed line that runs from North to South. You can’t bypass them. You have to punch a hole in that infantry wall. Long day for Afrika Korps.

Their tanks are back, and by the turn 13 they are, more or less, gone. No Matilldas, none yet. But still you have one or two 2-pounders lurking on me from behind. I can not disable my PzIIIEs main guns. And what pbear (and previously AmoSgt) have suggested about restricting your op-fire, does not work in the desert. You need your main gun to suppress odd enemy tank that pops up from nowhere, every now and then. Every hex is a kill zone. Open and wide, desert is mercyless.

When you are in the business of puncturing such a line of infantry, the most serious problem is spotting your enemy. Before you dig them out, you need to draw their fire and force them to reveal themselves. And no, scouts are not working against dug in British infantry. I tried slowly (one hex per turn) advancing my scouts, closely followed by panzers, so that panzers draw enemy fire. Doesn’t work. British see scouts first, every single unit fires at poor leg scouts with impunity. They ignore tanks :)!Ending situation: your scouts are routed, nobody saw a trace of the British. Back to the drawing board again.

The only chance I got to fire at them is in op-fire. And most of my op-fires are given to PzIIIEs, since these bastards are most frequent units in my force. See how 37 mm HE is ruining my day?

Tommy, I understood long time ago what is the principal answer to my question. But I enjoyed every word of discussion on this topic, really. It was nice reading, and I am grateful to all contributors.

I am not trying to force Matrix to act about this. They said that 6.1 is the final version, and I respect that. I want them to concentrate on the new engine, to be honest. In addition, I am almost sure that it would be serious trouble to change fine tuned op-fire code to fix this 37mm HE issue. I am not asking for that.

And I would not waste all this ink if it was not for the Mega Campaign that I am waiting for. Knowing what your weapon does and when is very important. Lots players will have to command PzIIIs in the MC, I suppose. In the desert!
kao16
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Post by kao16 »

Originally posted by Monte:
Kao16, there is a way to find that. Select the unit (any unit, works for infantry, as well) that you are interested in. Hit "T". Screen shows the last target that you fired (or op-fired) on. But don't press "N" to cycle through the targets, you will lose the benefit of the target acquisition from the previous turn.
Monte...

This works in my turn, but what about during op-fire?

AFAIK the only keys that the game detects during op-fire are the ones that say shoot/don't shoot.
Monte
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Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Post by Monte »

Sorry, kao16, I misunderstood you. Yeah, when op-firing, one does not know if he is loosing the benefit of previous target acquisition. I don’t have a solution for that.

Op-fire control in SP engine is weak spot. But it is hard to imagine how can one add more control without adding a lot of complexity for guys who don’t care about op-fire all that much. The devil is in the balanced play of the game.

God knows, we might have provided some food for thought for Matrix developers who are working on Squad Leader engine.
pbhawkin1
Posts: 156
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Location: Mudgee, Australia

Post by pbhawkin1 »

hi all,

how useful are 37mm German Kannons?
NOT VERY!!
Yes, their HE is almost worthless, and their AP is little better!!!
I am in the 2nd scenario of the MC and have just hit a Vickers Mk2 (max 8mm armour) six (yes 6 times) with 37mm AP and got 2 ricochetts (? spelling) a track hit, one penetrating hit (no damage) and two non-penetrating hits!!
I suppose I should be gratefull that it was so suppressed that it allowed my airsupport to take it out 2 turns later!!
Regards
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