Couple game mechanics questions...

[pasternakski]

Sorry, Frag, let me go get a screenie to show you what I mean. I apologize for not being clear. I just had my girlfriend for dinner, and my head's a little fuzzy...

[bradfordkay]

" I just had my girlfriend for dinner, and my head's a little fuzzy... "

Yeah, it must be confusing trying to come up with a reason for her disappearance...

[Mr.Frag]

Guess thats what happens when you leave your troops on little islands in the south pacific with no food for too long ...

[pasternakski]

Hi, hi, hi Mr. Deltoid.

The circled area of this screenshot shows what I was talking about. Whenever I have multiple units in the same hex, either a non-base hex or a base hex controlled by the enemy - Allied or Japanese, this exact same number of supplies shows up in this screen. Note, too, that it says no supplies are required in this hex, even if I have not physically placed any there and the hex is isolated from any friendly source of supply.

Units recover disruption, fatigue, and morale in a helluva hurry. I have taken to trying to keep units outside bases in multiple stacks for this very reason. I also discovered in my last PBEM game as the allies (my playing partner quit because he was screwing up Japanese production so bad) that the hex NE of Rangoon is a terrific defensive position due to this and the necessity for the Japanese to cross the river to get into it.

In any event, I'd be interested to see if anyone else has noticed these phenomena and if there is any "official" explanation of their existence (this screenie comes from a sc. 15 game started under v. 1.30 and continued under v. 1.40 - the same thing happened under v. 1.30, but the supply number was 102,000 and change).

Whew.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

As to your *my* aircraft didn't fly away and escape complaint ... been that way since day one, not going to change. You assume the risk by keeping aircraft at a base once enemy units move into that hex completely.

If you give it any real thought, it is pretty safe to assume that the first target for the guns attached to the units that are invading is pummelling the airfield to prevent it's use for escape, reinforcements and ground support.

We can't bombard airfields with LCU artillery, why should one assume this......wait for it......after all, it's a 60 mile hex![:D]

I've brought up the aircraft retreat a couple times during Beta and I know it isn't going to change. Not complaining however apparently would not be my style.[;)]

[Mr.Frag]

We can't bombard airfields with LCU artillery, why should one assume this......wait for it......after all, it's a 60 mile hex!

No different then expecting your 1 group of bombers to hit 5 separate airfields at the same time in that ...wait for it... 60 mile hex

It's called abstraction Ron ... drink faster and you'll understand ... things will look blurry and it will make perfect sense.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Hi, hi, hi Mr. Deltoid.

The circled area of this screenshot shows what I was talking about. Whenever I have multiple units in the same hex, either a non-base hex or a base hex controlled by the enemy - Allied or Japanese, this exact same number of supplies shows up in this screen. Note, too, that it says no supplies are required in this hex, even if I have not physically placed any there and the hex is isolated from any friendly source of supply.

Units recover disruption, fatigue, and morale in a helluva hurry. I have taken to trying to keep units outside bases in multiple stacks for this very reason. I also discovered in my last PBEM game as the allies (my playing partner quit because he was screwing up Japanese production so bad) that the hex NE of Rangoon is a terrific defensive position due to this and the necessity for the Japanese to cross the river to get into it.

In any event, I'd be interested to see if anyone else has noticed these phenomena and if there is any "official" explanation of their existence (this screenie comes from a sc. 15 game started under v. 1.30 and continued under v. 1.40 - the same thing happened under v. 1.30, but the supply number was 102,000 and change).

Whew.

Holy Walmart, Batman...look at those supplies!!! Hmmmm....looks like we found another design anomaly.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

We can't bombard airfields with LCU artillery, why should one assume this......wait for it......after all, it's a 60 mile hex!

No different then expecting your 1 group of bombers to hit 5 separate airfields at the same time in that ...wait for it... 60 mile hex

It's called abstraction Ron ... drink faster and you'll understand ... things will look blurry and it will make perfect sense.

Yea, this Yellow Label is good stuff! (Tea, baby)[;)] My point about aircraft retreat is "when do you know it is fairly safe that the base will hold?" I figured the planes were safe for at least one turn given the 50000 troops were behind a size 7 fort system in Singapore with mega supplies, good disruption, fatigue, experience and high prep points. Guess I was wrong...

[Mr.Frag]

"when do you know it is fairly safe that the base will hold?"

The only *safe* runway is one that doesn't have enemy troops within ... wait for it ... 60 miles [:'(]

[Mr.Frag]

paster, it's looking at the location where if there was a base there supply would be stored.

[jwilkerson]

If you had 450 AV versus 3400 on IJA side then result is not inexplicable.

But I have noticed that cutoff troops ... on either side ... are extremely resilient. I 've had 70:1 ... and 700:1 ... and 30:1 ... and 400:1 attacks against cutoff groups ( cutoff alllied groups as I've always been IJA/N ) and gone a dozen turns before they are destroyed or surrender ... my opponent says this is per design to allow late war Japanese to resist with no supply .. so we've let it go ... but if you're comparing your Singapore defeat to these situations then maybe your only problem was you weren't Out of Supply in a Jungle hex ! ( OOSIJH ) ...

[mogami]

Hi, Size of forts only matter if
1. You have troops to man them
2. You have troops enough to avoid being over run. (ratio)
Empty forts do nothing. Those 50k were the same 50k that a Japanese Army 1/3 the size of the force used at Singapore had chased (pushed) out of Malaya. Only 3 Div began the campaign in Malaya. The other 5 came from PI and they were complety rested and rebuilt before moving to Singapore. My units had 100 prep for Singapore. (I delayed outside a few extra days to let the last few prepare)
They invaded PI with objective Singapore.

Not every unit in a base that is captured without a retreat surrenders. Not every unit outside a base with no retrest holds more then 1 attack (they surrender)

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

If you had 450 AV versus 3400 on IJA side then result is not inexplicable.

But I have noticed that cutoff troops ... on either side ... are extremely resilient. I 've had 70:1 ... and 700:1 ... and 30:1 ... and 400:1 attacks against cutoff groups ( cutoff alllied groups as I've always been IJA/N ) and gone a dozen turns before they are destroyed or surrender ... my opponent says this is per design to allow late war Japanese to resist with no supply .. so we've let it go ... but if you're comparing your Singapore defeat to these situations then maybe your only problem was you weren't Out of Supply in a Jungle hex ! ( OOSIJH ) ...

The main point I was trying to make was to draw attention to the seeming discrepancy between units surrendering in base hexes but if in non base hex and cut off, they show amazing ability to withstand more severe attacks in more unfavourable situations.

I have no problem with the force surrendering at Singapore as I said initially, just was a bit surprised that it only took one attack. The fact that I find it difficult to assimilate all the widely varied elements of the land combat is a contributing factor to confusion.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

paster, it's looking at the location where if there was a base there supply would be stored.

So this really doesn't mean anything? The only reason I suspect there's something wrong is that, when you look at the individual units, they all have adequate supply, even when they shouldn't.

Oh, well. Never mind.

[Mr.Frag]

So this really doesn't mean anything? The only reason I suspect there's something wrong is that, when you look at the individual units, they all have adequate supply, even when they shouldn't.

The units draw individual supply from one of the bases, there is no stockpile of supplies in a non-base hex.

[esteban]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

OK. Couple questions here.

I just lost all units in Singapore after only one attack. Fortress level 7. 48000 troops, 60+ EXP and all with high Singapore prep...it was April 15th, 42, entrenched vs approx 250000. Japanese shock attack yields 32:1 odds after eng reduce fort to 6. Surrender! While I'm not questioning the result from an historical rationale (like IRL, the British surrendered by prolonged negotiation), I'm wondering about the difference in performance under similar odds by units surrounded by enemy in non base hexes. These non base hex units seem to withstand these same odds turn after turn yet when a base hex is involved the forces simply crap their pants and throw in the kerchief (pansies!).

Second observation/possible design flaw. I had two squadrons of P40E based at Singapore and these were lost. (Arrrgh[X(][;)]) Darn retards should know to fly to next base...after all, LCUs can retreat, why not aircraft?) I digress...this is not the problem. Both squadrons were understrength and I had approx 25 P40E in the pool with no squadrons set to receive replacements or upgrade to P40E. After the squadrons were lost, the pool shows 2 P40E. I think when squadrons are lost in this manner the pool is raped to fill out the squadrons.

I'll send the saves to anyone who wants to look at this.

Did you have that boob Percival still in command? That could explain a lot.

Also, I think that there should be an option to surrender in that case. Here you had 50,000 guys, outnumbered 5-1, who just lost their entrenchments and supplies (singapore would have been taken in the assault anyway) and have no path of retreat.

It doesn't surprise me that they surrendered.

As for the P-40s, you should have got them out of Dodge when you had the chance!! At the very least, since one unit was 60% strength, and the other 30%, and to conserve supplies in a besieged base you probably had replacements turned off, you should have disbanded one group into the other and then reform the first group from replacements 90 days later.

Is there something that you could accomplish with 2 understrength fighter groups that you couldn't do with one full strength group that you divided into 3 squadrons?

[moses]

I think there is a problem created when units in non base hexes have no supply sourse to retreat to. They are supposed to retreat but then are unable to since their are no supply sourses. But for some reason they escape the eliminaton routine explained in the game rules.

When I was doing the invasion russia head-to-head games as soon as I take the last russian city, all russian units in entire south become like iron. They will not retreat and the only way to defeat them is to pound them for weeks.

Same happens in China. Chinese divisions with a supply line are easy to defeat. They retreat as soon as you get the odds required by the rules. Once surrounded however they will fight on despite the odds.

I'm running a new russian scenario with Admiral Laurant. Very soon his cities will be gone. I'll see if his units then become stronger.

Very strange. Units in supply retreat every time when you get the odds required by the rules. Cut off units can survive odds of 100-1 and don't even take heavy losses. Doesn't really make sence.

[bradfordkay]

" paster, it's looking at the location where if there was a base there supply would be stored."

I don't think that is the case. Other bases not very far away (and within the same supply distance as the non-base locations) do not show anywhere near the same amount of supply, unless it happens to be pulling supply from my enemies. In my present game, every non-base stack of units in China shows the hex with 109365 supply. I am sure that you will understand that none of my allied chinese bases have anything approaching that amount.

[medicff]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

" paster, it's looking at the location where if there was a base there supply would be stored."

I don't think that is the case. Other bases not very far away (and within the same supply distance as the non-base locations) do not show anywhere near the same amount of supply, unless it happens to be pulling supply from my enemies. In my present game, every non-base stack of units in China shows the hex with 109365 supply. I am sure that you will understand that none of my allied chinese bases have anything approaching that amount.

I would agree here that is somesort of bug and NOT applicable to that specific hex. I would think that the number should equal the supply being drawn into the hex for all the units there. (IE add all the supplies up for each unit to get a total).

Another question of forts outside a base hex.
As the attacker you never know the forts for the battle.
The forts can be different for each unit.
Do the forts ever get decreased by attack? (how would you know)
How do you know the odds needed for victory? (in a base 2-1 plus forts)

Pat

[pasternakski]

Thank you, sir. It is especially troublesome that, no matter where you go on the map, the number of supplies is exactly the same - for me, 100,602 - and the legend says that zero supplies are needed, even when I have units in the hex that I know have no supply source.

As I mentioned before, units in these situations repair quickly, recover morale and fatigue, and generally fare better than units inside base hexes.

I think there's a problem here, but, as it's just one of so many, I have stopped asking to get them solved - particularly when the answer I always get is either that it's my or my system's fault or that the problem doesn't really exist at all, despite what I see before my very eyes. I just hope that the game is to some degree playable after the next patch.