Screens
RE: Screens
Whats the range of your artillery? (meaning how many hexes can they fire)
RE: Screens
They are most effective in the first four hexes, after which they fall off considerably. I think they can actually attack something at range of 10 hexes, but at that range they don't do very much, unless maybe against a squared infantry on ice.
Infantry divisions are condsidered to have at least some small amount of artillery attached and can attack minimally at a range of 6, though most of their damage falls off after the first 2 hexes.
I found data from the Prussian military of the percentage of hits from infantrymen firing at a sheet of cloth roughly man sized in height at various ranges and have based our hit numbers using this as the normalized optimal result. It was hard to stick to a uniform scale using units at the division level, since in reality a division wouldn't be stuck in one hex, so we consider the divisions to be operating with the unit icon as their center of operations, and tweaked the range tables a bit for the sake of game playability.
Infantry divisions are condsidered to have at least some small amount of artillery attached and can attack minimally at a range of 6, though most of their damage falls off after the first 2 hexes.
I found data from the Prussian military of the percentage of hits from infantrymen firing at a sheet of cloth roughly man sized in height at various ranges and have based our hit numbers using this as the normalized optimal result. It was hard to stick to a uniform scale using units at the division level, since in reality a division wouldn't be stuck in one hex, so we consider the divisions to be operating with the unit icon as their center of operations, and tweaked the range tables a bit for the sake of game playability.
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Iñaki Harrizabalagatar
- Posts: 785
- Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2001 6:00 pm
RE: Screens
Eric
Probably you will need to lower that optimal, as performance in real battle is always dramatically worst than in training
Probably you will need to lower that optimal, as performance in real battle is always dramatically worst than in training
RE: Screens
Hi Inaki,
Thank you again for the data you sent me.
What I meant by *normalized* optimal is that I used the range curve generated by the Prussian data as the shape for the range curve for my combat data.
I balanced the scale of the Prussian data by calculating an average casualty rate for Napoleonic battles, based on a table listing battles and casualty rates. I then ran many battle simulations to generate averages for my rules, and then tweaked the scale of the damage curve up/down until an approximate fit with the historical data was obtained.
I did change the range values somewhat for the sake of playability -- giving infantry divisions and artillery slightly longer effective ranges makes the battles much more interesting, and can be justified by the understanding that divisions are only abstractly located in the hex in which they are represented (consider that hex their base of operations) and so their ranges might extend a bit farther than the simple calculation of the parabolic arc of a cannonball might otherwise allow.
Eric
Thank you again for the data you sent me.
What I meant by *normalized* optimal is that I used the range curve generated by the Prussian data as the shape for the range curve for my combat data.
I balanced the scale of the Prussian data by calculating an average casualty rate for Napoleonic battles, based on a table listing battles and casualty rates. I then ran many battle simulations to generate averages for my rules, and then tweaked the scale of the damage curve up/down until an approximate fit with the historical data was obtained.
I did change the range values somewhat for the sake of playability -- giving infantry divisions and artillery slightly longer effective ranges makes the battles much more interesting, and can be justified by the understanding that divisions are only abstractly located in the hex in which they are represented (consider that hex their base of operations) and so their ranges might extend a bit farther than the simple calculation of the parabolic arc of a cannonball might otherwise allow.
Eric
RE: Screens
Do buildings and houses give any kind of defense bonus?
And are forts (major ones) predetermined (meaning will the always be there)? Or can you have your engineer units construct them?
And are forts (major ones) predetermined (meaning will the always be there)? Or can you have your engineer units construct them?
RE: Screens
Villages give defensive bonuses, but units in them attack out at a penalty compared to their performance in open terrain. (This penalty is greatly reduced for light infantry and skirmishing infantry.) Villages and forts also provide a small amount of re-supply to units that begin their turn located in them.
The maps for the battles are randomly created based on the parameters of the province you are fighting in. On our strategic map of Europe, terrain is associated with edges of provinces. If the invader of a province passes through mountains along at least one edge then the map is more likely to be mountainous. The number of villages is related to the population level of the province. The number of roads is related to its level of the "roads" development. Each province also has a "guns" development level; this determines the chance that there are forts on the map, and if there are forts it is related to how many there are and how large they are.
Currently the maps are generated from scratch each time a player enters a battle in a province. We have considered keeping track of a list of random seeds for each province and using these seeds to generate the maps, so that each province might only have 4 - 5 maps associated with it; the idea being that players might like to get to know the maps associated with each province.
Eric
The maps for the battles are randomly created based on the parameters of the province you are fighting in. On our strategic map of Europe, terrain is associated with edges of provinces. If the invader of a province passes through mountains along at least one edge then the map is more likely to be mountainous. The number of villages is related to the population level of the province. The number of roads is related to its level of the "roads" development. Each province also has a "guns" development level; this determines the chance that there are forts on the map, and if there are forts it is related to how many there are and how large they are.
Currently the maps are generated from scratch each time a player enters a battle in a province. We have considered keeping track of a list of random seeds for each province and using these seeds to generate the maps, so that each province might only have 4 - 5 maps associated with it; the idea being that players might like to get to know the maps associated with each province.
Eric
RE: Screens
ORIGINAL: ericbabe
Here's another Austria vs France battle, this time in 1805. (I finally fixed the Austrian uniforms.) I'm the Austrians; AI is playing the French. They drove me out of the fortress at the start of the battle. I've got the two garrisons remaining in the fortress, but they are disordered and very depleted. Units in the fortress are considered to have access to the big guns and can attack as heavy artillery, so the French infantry division in column at the northern part of the fortress has just started blowing away Archduke Charles' division in the woods beside it.
It set up in line formation on the ridge at the east at the beginning of the battle but my units there are too far out of range to do much good. The two French artillery in the middle have been doing a lot of damage, and I see they have a third artillery coming up from the rear. The French have reinforcements on the way and I do not, so I better hurry up.
I don't mean to be picky, but I have a quick question.
1. What uniforms are your Austrians wearing if they are fixed? Didn't Austrian infantry generally wear off-white for their enlisted? (Brighter white for their officers?) Maybe its my monitor, but I don't see any white at all.
I gotta say that I still prefer the NATO symbols to the 3D images. (They're just too hard to make out any detail.)
Thanks, [:)]
Rick
Oh yeah. What's that red and white flag? I've never seen an Austrian flag like that. (Thanks again.) [:)]
Vive l'Empereur!
RE: Screens
Ok, so why is it I see no ships in these shots 
People just don't want to do naval battles?
People just don't want to do naval battles? Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves…
RE: Screens
Good point Pippin ----even though naval battles are on the back burner for me.
One big question I have is : Will the fog of war model be applied to naval matters as well?
One big question I have is : Will the fog of war model be applied to naval matters as well?
Vive l'Empereur!
RE: Screens
I don't mean to be picky, but I have a quick question.
1. What uniforms are your Austrians wearing if they are fixed? Didn't Austrian infantry generally wear off-white for their enlisted? (Brighter white for their officers?) Maybe its my monitor, but I don't see any white at all.
We decided the most important consideration with the uniforms was to convey information to the player -- unit type and nationality. This meant, for instance, making the guard units and light infantry units of each nation look similar to the guards and lt infantry of the other nations. We wanted to make sure that the units had some of the national color in them -- the color we use to shade the main map -- so that units would be easily recognizable to players: we did not want to require that players have the expert knowledge of uniforms that you have in order to be able to recognize units. For France and Britain, for example, it was easy to stick to closer to historical uniforms and shade the map with the same base color. Austria was a bit more difficult because we can't shade the map in white. Austria's map color is orange and so we put some orange in their uniform.
The Austrian units are, however, mostly grey -- RGB 153,153,153.
Oh yeah. What's that red and white flag? I've never seen an Austrian flag like that. (Thanks again.) [:)]
You're welcome.
They're Austrian colors dating to the 12th or 13th century. Emperor Joseph II declared the tricolor red-white-red to be the national flag of Austria in the late 18th century. The black double-headed eagle was the coat of arms of the Holy Roman Emperors since, I believe, the 14th century. Emperor Franz II declared this the coat of arms for all Austria in 1804. Since the flags in the detailed battles represent the presence of commanders, it seemed fitting to use the coat of arms for this. The Austrian corps/army flags we use have the black double headed eagle on a yellow background with which you are perhaps more familiar. The Austrian national flag we use has the coat of arms over the bicolor black/yellow.
Eric
RE: Screens
Naval actions only use quick combat.
I'll try to get shots of quick combat up in the next few days.
Eric
I'll try to get shots of quick combat up in the next few days.
Eric
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pixelpusher
- Posts: 685
- Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:46 am
RE: Screens
Hi Tondu,
I'm Mr. Barish; the guy who is doing all the CoG graphics. Thanks for your interest in CoG!
You are part right. The austrian cavalry and officers generally wore off-white with red trim and a black and gold helmet. The grunts would often wear gray long coats (famously depicted in the Vernet paintings of napoleons battles) with their white sash on the outside. The austrians also had a white-coat blue pant uniform, but it was too similar to the spanish.
Just to add onto what eric has already mentioned above; another consideration is the visibility of the white X on infantry, and the / on cavalry 3d units. Those are important to see for being able to tell what a unit is at a glance. All white uniforms means those are not visible.
Yeah people seem to have strong feelings one way or another. The little dots have the added benefit of showing troop strength graphically on the map. It is my understanding that you will be able to choose your preferred method of display.
Check it out: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/au.html
It's quite old. There is a great story about that flag's origins ... from a battle in the Crusades. The national flag we are using for austria (yellow and black bicolor, black/orange eagle crest) is not historical, but is a composite of the warflag of the hapsburgs, and the austrian eagle crest. The idea here was that the austro-hungarian empire was larger than just austria, and that we needed to get some orange into it to correspond w/ the map color.
I'm Mr. Barish; the guy who is doing all the CoG graphics. Thanks for your interest in CoG!
1. What uniforms are your Austrians wearing if they are fixed? Didn't Austrian infantry generally wear off-white for their enlisted? (Brighter white for their officers?) Maybe its my monitor, but I don't see any white at all.
You are part right. The austrian cavalry and officers generally wore off-white with red trim and a black and gold helmet. The grunts would often wear gray long coats (famously depicted in the Vernet paintings of napoleons battles) with their white sash on the outside. The austrians also had a white-coat blue pant uniform, but it was too similar to the spanish.
Just to add onto what eric has already mentioned above; another consideration is the visibility of the white X on infantry, and the / on cavalry 3d units. Those are important to see for being able to tell what a unit is at a glance. All white uniforms means those are not visible.
I gotta say that I still prefer the NATO symbols to the 3D images. (They're just too hard to make out any detail.)
Yeah people seem to have strong feelings one way or another. The little dots have the added benefit of showing troop strength graphically on the map. It is my understanding that you will be able to choose your preferred method of display.
Oh yeah. What's that red and white flag? I've never seen an Austrian flag like that. (Thanks again.)
Check it out: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/au.html
It's quite old. There is a great story about that flag's origins ... from a battle in the Crusades. The national flag we are using for austria (yellow and black bicolor, black/orange eagle crest) is not historical, but is a composite of the warflag of the hapsburgs, and the austrian eagle crest. The idea here was that the austro-hungarian empire was larger than just austria, and that we needed to get some orange into it to correspond w/ the map color.
RE: Screens
We decided the most important consideration with the uniforms was to convey information to the player -- unit type and nationality. This meant, for instance, making the guard units and light infantry units of each nation look similar to the guards and lt infantry of the other nations. We wanted to make sure that the units had some of the national color in them -- the color we use to shade the main map -- so that units would be easily recognizable to players: we did not want to require that players have the expert knowledge of uniforms that you have in order to be able to recognize units. For France and Britain, for example, it was easy to stick to closer to historical uniforms and shade the map with the same base color. Austria was a bit more difficult because we can't shade the map in white. Austria's map color is orange and so we put some orange in their uniform.
I understand now why your soldiers look like more Mexican 1846 than Napoleonic. For those who have some knoledge of this period it's a great pity. Ask myself if napoleonic cultur for other game mechanism are also at the minimun
RE: Screens
ORIGINAL: ericbabe
We decided the most important consideration with the uniforms was to convey information to the player -- unit type and nationality. This meant, for instance, making the guard units and light infantry units of each nation look similar to the guards and lt infantry of the other nations. We wanted to make sure that the units had some of the national color in them -- the color we use to shade the main map -- so that units would be easily recognizable to players: we did not want to require that players have the expert knowledge of uniforms that you have in order to be able to recognize units. For France and Britain, for example, it was easy to stick to closer to historical uniforms and shade the map with the same base color. Austria was a bit more difficult because we can't shade the map in white. Austria's map color is orange and so we put some orange in their uniform.
The Austrian units are, however, mostly grey -- RGB 153,153,153.
Thank you so much for your replys. It is to your great credit that you guys are so responsive. Too many gaming companies give information out in spoonfulls.
I don't want such a good start to go bad, but I must give some constructive criticism. I understand the technical aspects of your answer regarding uniforms. You guys deserve laurels for your overall efforts, but it will be in the details that you will be examined ---by many.
You are conveying information to the player in the 3D images, but I respectfully submit that you unfortunately are conveying the incorrect information. As I look at that screen, I see no Austrian uniforms at all.
Some orange (or ochre rather) color did exhist in the Austrian uniform. The trouble is that it was in the uniform for their artillery gunners. For Austrian troops, here has to be white or it just doesn't work.
Now, that guy on the horse looks weird too. What's up with that red horse tail plume coming from his head? I don't remember seeing any Napoleonic cavalry with one of those.
What Napoleonic uniform books are you using?
ORIGINAL: ericbabe
You're welcome.
They're Austrian colors dating to the 12th or 13th century. Emperor Joseph II declared the tricolor red-white-red to be the national flag of Austria in the late 18th century. The black double-headed eagle was the coat of arms of the Holy Roman Emperors since, I believe, the 14th century. Emperor Franz II declared this the coat of arms for all Austria in 1804. Since the flags in the detailed battles represent the presence of commanders, it seemed fitting to use the coat of arms for this. The Austrian corps/army flags we use have the black double headed eagle on a yellow background with which you are perhaps more familiar. The Austrian national flag we use has the coat of arms over the bicolor black/yellow.
Eric
That is nice. It may be the coat of arms in 1804, but it wasn't the flag that was used in the field. I respectfully submit that those little flags used in the battle maps should reflect what was used in the field at the time. I don't remember ever seeing anything that says that Napoleonic Austrian troops ever carried around any like that.
Now with that said, I am one who strongly prefers the NATO symbols. (I still prefer to exercise my imagination.) [:)] I don't like the 3D images because they almost look all the same to me. I offer the above to help those that do like the 3D images and I will not speak of them again.
You guys are going through so much effort to be so highly detailed in simulating the Napoleonic Era that I think it would be a great shame to not go all the way. ---Especially with what we see on the screen.
I want to say something about those generic flags on the strategic map that the minor provinces will be using. It would be real nice if they could be 100% accurate (regarding each nation) as well.
I know that what I've brought up means more work, but don't forget that it will be in the details that your tremendous work will really shine.
Cheers,
Rick [:)]
Vive l'Empereur!
RE: Screens
Naval actions only use quick combat.
Ohhh, you cheap skates!!
Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves…
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wayne19563
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:34 pm
RE: Screens
Game looks good. Using "real life" uniforms is a must. Game will be judged by casual gamers and grognards alike.
Things that make a great game .... (from my view)
Ease of game play
Eye appeal (yes - eye candy counts)
Realism that allows for A-historical outcomes
Solid AI that allows for challenging solitaire play
Editor to create battles that can be shared in the community
Maybe you could look to Age of Rifles for Norm's 3D type symbols for Tactical battles, also his historical uniforms.
Looking forward to this release... it needs an editor included so that you can create your own battles.. this greatly enhances the replay value.
Any chance you can add the Civil War as an expansion Pack?
Things that make a great game .... (from my view)
Ease of game play
Eye appeal (yes - eye candy counts)
Realism that allows for A-historical outcomes
Solid AI that allows for challenging solitaire play
Editor to create battles that can be shared in the community
Maybe you could look to Age of Rifles for Norm's 3D type symbols for Tactical battles, also his historical uniforms.
Looking forward to this release... it needs an editor included so that you can create your own battles.. this greatly enhances the replay value.
Any chance you can add the Civil War as an expansion Pack?
Thanks
Wayne
Wayne
RE: Screens
ORIGINAL: 2gaulle
I understand now why your soldiers look like more Mexican 1846 than Napoleonic. For those who have some knoledge of this period it's a great pity. Ask myself if napoleonic cultur for other game mechanism are also at the minimun
Hi 2gaulle,
Your enthusiasm for this project is charming.
You may, I pray, be pleased to learn that Mr Barish expressed his particular opinion to me this morning in an email that it may be possible without missing our deadline to raise the RGB value of the coats from 153 to perhaps something like 200, and also to desaturate the brown in the Austrian trousers, all in such a way as to maintain unit recognizability. This is his own particular recommendation, motivated as he was by a desire to please, or at the least to placate, Napoleonic enthusiasts around the globe.
Eric
RE: Screens
Hi Le Tondu,
I understand completely why other game companies release only bits of information! I sympathize.
I'd like some other opinions regarding the Hapsburg coat of arms on the red-white-red if anyone else has references to this, one way or the other. We did find a source that indicated that this flag was used alongside the black and yellow double-eagle, but as I lost my internet bookmarks in my last hard drive crash I no longer have that source handy.
I must beg your indulgence regarding the cavalry plumes. The plume of which you wrote comes from a generic Napoleonic helmet object Mr Barish used to create the cavalry, not an Austrian 3D helmet object per se. The 3D objects require an enormous amount of work, and it is simply beyond our means to make custom 3D helmets and coats for each nation. Perhaps if there is enough demand then we can fulfill your helmet related requirements in a sequel, but as it is I am in point of fact very constrained by considerations of money and time. I work more than 100 hours per week on this project, and I cannot bear any more financial debt related to it.
I believe Mr Barish uses the Osprey series as the basis for his uniforms.
Our beta testers include many Napoleonic enthusiasts and experts and they seem to accept with cheerful equanimity the notion that there must be a compromise between our limited resources, the need for an accessible and playable interface, and the presence of historically accurate bits of pixels. I have received an enormous amount of enthusiasm and encouragement for our game via electronic mail, and I am certain that the Napoleonics community at large will be as understanding of the need for such compromises.
As I mentioned in a previous post, Mr Barish believes it may be possible to lighten the Austrian uniforms without obfuscating the difference between the various types of infantry (light, guard, militia, regular). If you'd care to give a more detailed critique, perhaps I could arrange to email samples of our uniforms and flags to you. If you're interested, please write to me at ericbabe@west-civ.com.
All the best,
Eric
I understand completely why other game companies release only bits of information! I sympathize.
I'd like some other opinions regarding the Hapsburg coat of arms on the red-white-red if anyone else has references to this, one way or the other. We did find a source that indicated that this flag was used alongside the black and yellow double-eagle, but as I lost my internet bookmarks in my last hard drive crash I no longer have that source handy.
I must beg your indulgence regarding the cavalry plumes. The plume of which you wrote comes from a generic Napoleonic helmet object Mr Barish used to create the cavalry, not an Austrian 3D helmet object per se. The 3D objects require an enormous amount of work, and it is simply beyond our means to make custom 3D helmets and coats for each nation. Perhaps if there is enough demand then we can fulfill your helmet related requirements in a sequel, but as it is I am in point of fact very constrained by considerations of money and time. I work more than 100 hours per week on this project, and I cannot bear any more financial debt related to it.
I believe Mr Barish uses the Osprey series as the basis for his uniforms.
Our beta testers include many Napoleonic enthusiasts and experts and they seem to accept with cheerful equanimity the notion that there must be a compromise between our limited resources, the need for an accessible and playable interface, and the presence of historically accurate bits of pixels. I have received an enormous amount of enthusiasm and encouragement for our game via electronic mail, and I am certain that the Napoleonics community at large will be as understanding of the need for such compromises.
As I mentioned in a previous post, Mr Barish believes it may be possible to lighten the Austrian uniforms without obfuscating the difference between the various types of infantry (light, guard, militia, regular). If you'd care to give a more detailed critique, perhaps I could arrange to email samples of our uniforms and flags to you. If you're interested, please write to me at ericbabe@west-civ.com.
All the best,
Eric
RE: Screens
Ohhh, you cheap skates!!
The irony is that in multiplayer mode my detailed combat engine worked almost perfectly from the very start, whereas quick combat in multiplayer had a dozen or so bugs that took a lot of work to iron out, and was an enormous headache to implement in m-player games.
Not counting related AI code, detailed combat consumes some 15,000 lines of code. Quick combat is a mere 1,000 lines.
Eric