Use of Force Z?

[Nikademus]

yep.....they really gave PoW the shaft

[:D]

[Iridium]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
And as others have said, only Yamato really outclasses it in surface combat before SD and Iowa..

Cheers,

M.S.

I'm curious why you think that the POW is better than the Mutsu and Nagato. For that matter, if your only counting surface combat, then why not include Ise class and Fuso while your at it. POW can out run the older ships, but I'd say their pretty even in surface combat statistics, if not better than the POW.

[String]

ORIGINAL: Iridium

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
And as others have said, only Yamato really outclasses it in surface combat before SD and Iowa..

Cheers,

M.S.

I'm curious why you think that the POW is better than the Mutsu and Nagato. For that matter, if your only counting surface combat, then why not include Ise class and Fuso while your at it. POW can out run the older ships, but I'd say their pretty even in surface combat statistics, if not better than the POW.

Night Time Surface Combat, near Balikpapan at 31,64

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Shell hits 9, on fire, heavy damage
CA Takao, Shell hits 1
CA Atago, Shell hits 7
CL Sendai
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 5, on fire
DD Yugumo
DD Maikaze, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
DD Oshio
DD Michishio, Shell hits 15, on fire, heavy damage
DD Minegumo, Shell hits 3

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales
CA Houston, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Cornwall, Shell hits 2, on fire
CL De Ruyter, Shell hits 3
CL Enterprise, Shell hits 2
CL Danae, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Dragon
CL Durban
CL Mauritius
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 3
DD Stronghold
DD Tenedos
DD Thanet, Shell hits 1
DD Electra
DD Jupiter

[:D]

All hits on BB Nagato were scored by BB Prince of Wales. She was still two hexes out the next mornign and was sunk by Beauforts [8D]. She also returned fire but all hits missed [;)] Overall it was a bad mission for the japs, when the TF approached Balikpapan the previous day BB Mutsu took a torpedo from a beaufort flying from Balikpapan.

[Iridium]

Once instance of chance does not make something better...but it's nice to see that the POW can put up a fight.[:D]

[Tom Hunter]

I think POW is better than the two older Japanese ships because she is a newer design with Radar and a somewhat better armor configuration. Battleships got better in the 20 odd years between the designs

[Bradley7735]

Tom, the problem with the game is that ordinance either penetrates or it doesn't. So, all BB guns will penetrate all BB armor. Even though in real life some BB armor should stop some/most other BB guns.

I wish there was some kind of random effect on penetration. That way, they wouldn't have needed 1,000 pound AP bombs. 1,000 lb GP bombs should have a small chance of penetration. Likewise, 8" shots from USS San Francisco should have some chance to penetrate Hiei's armor. In the game, San Fran can't hurt Hiei. Same as the 1,000 lb GP bombs.

So, in the game, Nagato can actually be better than POW. In real life, I expect that POW would have had a field day with Nagato. At the very least, they are equal in the game. (I still think that the game has some kind of positive modifier for Japan surface forces. They seem to wipe the floor with anyone about 75% of the time. It should be 50%)

[Nikademus]

I have seen BB shells defeated by BB armor. What your most likely seeing is close range night combat where armor often is largely negated. Modern BB's were designed to fight within theoretical immunity zones that usually ranged within the 20k to 30k bracket depending on the shell being examined.

Most night combat in WitP occurs at under 10K. Point blank range for a BB.

In the example posted, the victor would largely be determined by who hits first and the most.

[Captain Ed]

I send them on there death cruise as they did historically right into Khota Baru to mix it up with the Japanese like in my PBEM with Mark VII. If there is one thing the RN knows how to do its die a glorius death, besides you just might get lucky and sink or badly damage a few IJN cruisers as I did seven or eight 15 inch shells into a CA ought to end her war career I think it was the Suzuya. Two other CAs also took hits.[:D]

[Nikademus]

My most extradinary game experience (read: rotton luck) remains an incident involving Force Z. an Iboat attacked PoW while dashing north to engage the transports and she put six....yes six torpedoes into her side.

Needless to say....PoW rolled over and sank that turn. [X(]

Never seen anything so spectacular involving a BB and a sub since then.

[Captain Ed]

Ouch [:D][:D][:D]

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

My most extradinary game experience (read: rotton luck) remains an incident involving Force Z. an Iboat attacked PoW while dashing north to engage the transports and she put six....yes six torpedoes into her side.

Needless to say....PoW rolled over and sank that turn. [X(]

Never seen anything so spectacular involving a BB and a sub since then.

Wow. I've never seen all 6 torps hit in 1 attack! [X(]

[Tom Hunter]

If you want to see Force Z used and discussed in the Dutch East Indies check the Imperialism AAR for second & third week of December. I tried to stop Blackwatch from taking Balikpapan by putting together a number of surface TFs centered around PoW.

Repulse took 4 Japanese bombs at Singapore day 1 of the war and is now limping to the West coast for repairs. I can't comment on what the 2 of them can do together, because I have never had them both together, I always get one shot up in the first day. [:(]

I also think Brady may be right about a surface combat bonus for the Japanese. I have had numerous fights where my TFs were lead by radar equipped British BBs with good admirals and night (or day) ratings in the 80s fighting inferior numbers of Japanese lead by CLs. The Japanese don't outright sink my TFs but they have often done disproportionate damage and survived both of which are highly unlikely.

I have also seen the Japanese suprise my TFs during daylight when the battle opened up at 22,000 yards. That is a little odd as well, I am totally in agreement that its possible to suprise a surface TF at night and at close range, but it seems to me that the definition of suprise is sneaking up on an enemy at night into close range, so that you can do multiple hits in a short time and inflict crippling damage. The idea that a force that opens fire 11 miles from the enemy is getting suprise is kind of silly because the chance of getting a lot of ordinace on target quickly at that range is zero. Maybe a fix for 1.6?

Someday when I learn production and start playing Japanese I am going to make a lot of effort to force surface actions early in the war. I also want to point out that I am getting these results when the Japanese fight the very high experience British TFs not the less experienced American forces. I shudder to think what would happen to them.

I have been thinking about ways to manipulate the game system to beat the suspected Japanese advantage but I will wait until I get an experiment to work before I post anything about it.