Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$

[Charles2222]

Spawning carriers tends to make the Allied players care a lot less about losses.

[Charles2222]

I believe the Midway CV's were that sank were all fueling up at the time; that or changing ordinance.

Oh I would like to add that if the complaintant had sent his CV's off at full speed from the enemy, or even used mission speed that probably didn't help matters any. I had like three to four DD's injured more badly trying to support the invasion of Wake, and all of them got back to Truk. I think they all exceeded 45 damage in both sys and flood, and by the time they reached Truk they were in the 60-70 category. A small part of the way I went with cruise, but I thought the better of it and went with full speed thereafter. If the distance were greater, I would've cruised all the way. The CV's might not be helped any either if he were still sending sorties off those CV's, but I understand the total damage can't exceed 50 or they can't fly.

[treespider]

For those who would like to know...


KAGA
4 June 1942:
Launched strikes against Midway Island. Subsequently engaged and attacked by numerous enemy land and carrier-based aircraft. At 1022 struck by a minimum of four bombs from aircraft from U.S.S. ENTERPRISE (CV-6) inducing explosions among armed and fueled aircraft and unstored ordnance on the hangar decks, starting a raging aviation gasoline fire. One of the bombs destroyed the bridge, killing Captain Okada, her Gunnery Officer, and DCO. As a result, KAGA is left with only inexperienced aviators to fight the fires, and they are soon out of control. KAGA' engine gang soon is overcome, and she goes dead in the water. Her acting skipper orders the Emperor's portrait transferred, and soon after, at 1410, KAGA is attacked by submarine USS NAUTILUS. One torpedo hits the starboard quarter, but fails to explode. By 1700 all non-essential personnel have left the ship, removed by destroyers HAGIKAZE and MAIKAZE.

Sunk: At 1925 KAGA is rocked by two great explosions and sinks stern first at 1926 in position 30-23.3'N, 179-17.2' W. (See Note). She suffered a loss of 814 officers, petty officers, and men.

AKAGI4 June 1942:
Launched strikes against Midway Island. Subsequently engaged and attacked by numerous enemy land and carrier-based aircraft. At 1026 struck by two bombs from aircraft from U.S.S. ENTERPRISE (CV-6). Althoughnormally the damage would have been moderate, the vessel is just preparing a strike,with the result that the bomb hits induce explosions among armed and fueled aircraft onthe flight and hangar decks and start a raging aviation gasoline fire. Since she was in a maximum turn at the time, AKAGI's rudder is jammed 20 degrees to port, leaving her going in wide circles. Unable to command the fleet from her now, at 1046 VADM Nagumo Chuichi transferred flag first to NOWAKI, then to NAGARA. AKAGI's engines work erratically, with the ship starting and stopping, but she goes dead in the water for good at 1350. By 1600 all non-essential personnel have left the ship, though Captain Aoki and a damage control party remain aboard. The vessel burns through the evening and next night, but remains afloat.

5 June 1942:
Sunk: Scuttled by direct order of C-in-C Combined Fleet Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku.At 0520 sank bow first after three torpedo hits out of four fired into her starboard side -one each - by ARASHIO, HAGIKAZE, MAIKAZE and NOWAKI. Sank in position 30-30 N, 178-40 W. More than 1,070 survivors rescued, including her skipper, (now Captain Aoki Taijiro - who had replaced Hasegawa in the spring) - though he had to be ordered off the ship -, while only263 petty officers and men are lost. Survivors subsequently transferred from destroyers to MUTSU, one of the battleships in Yamamoto's Main Body.


SORYU3- 4 June 1942:
Participate in the Battle of Midway. Launched strike against Midway Island.

Sunk: At 1025 while preparing to launch strike against enemy carrier, attacked by thirteen enemy dive bombers. Three direct bomb hits, one on the forward elevator, the other two straddle the second elevator, setting off furious fires and induced explosions among the armed and fueled aircraft. At 1040 goes dead in the water; and five minutes later Abandon Ship is ordered. Survivors are removed by ISOKAZE and HAMAKAZE and vessel is left drifting and afire. At 1913 begins to sink by the stern and three minutes later upends and sinks, taking down 713 officers and men including Captain Yanagimoto Ryusaku, who had deliberately chosen to remain aboard. (Position 30 - 38' N, 179 - 13 W')

HIRYU3- 4 June 1942:
Participate in the Battle of Midway. Launch strike against Midway at 0430. When KAGA, SORYU, and AKAGI set afire and disabled by bomb strikes at 1025, initially avoid damage by enemy torpedo and bomb attacks. Launched two strikes at 1050 and 1245 against USS YORKTOWN.

Sunk: At 1703 while preparing to launch strike against enemy carrier, attacked by thirteen enemy dive bombers. Four direct bomb hits received, all closely spaced. The first three landed in a row on the fore part of the flight deck, the blast of the nearest flinging the forward elevator bodily against the island. The fourth bomb struck amidships beside the bridge. The hits set off furious fires and induced explosions among aircraft being scheduled to launch in an hour. Though initially able to maintain 28 knots and withdraw to the west, the fires gain steadily. At 2123 goes dead in the water, and KAZAGUMO and MAKIGUMO detached to stand by. At 0158 a major induced explosion occurs, and hope is lost. Abandon ship is ordered, and ComCarDiv 2 Yamaguchi gives a farewell speech, and remains aboard with Captain Kaku Tomeo. Yamaguchi orders the carrier scuttled, and after survivors removed by KAZAGUMO and MAKIGUMO, at 0510 scuttled by MAKIGUMO with one torpedo in the starboard side opposite the bridge. (Scuttling position 31-38'N, 178-51'W). The MAKIGUMO then withdraws without confirming the sinking. Therafter, at 0630 a plane from HOSHO finds and photographs HIRYU still afloat and with survivors clearly seen still aboard. The destroyer TANIKAZE is dispatched, but before she arrives, the carrier at 0912 upended and sank by the bow in a position between 240 - 260 miles NW from Midway. Of the 70 men marooned aboard, only thirty-five are eventually rescued by the U.S. Navy, including her Chief Engineer. A total of 418 officers, petty officers and men are listed as lost with the carrier, but this does not appear to exclude the POWs, so the actual figure would be 383 lost.

[Rainerle]

So if the japanese had won the battlefield Akagi and Hiryu could have been saved ?

[LittleJoe]

ORIGINAL: treespider

29 November 1944:
At 0309 near position bearing 198 degrees 108 miles from Omae-zaki lighthouse struck by four torpedoes in the starboard side fired by USS ARCHERFISH. At first the damage - though severe -- is judged manageable, and the carrier is able to maintain speed and course. However, progressive flooding through incomplete fittings spreads, and a heavy list to starboard develops. Captain Abe orders the three outboard port boiler rooms flooded to take some of the list off. At dawn SHINANO had steamed 36 miles from where torpedoed and was still making 11 knots, when boiler feed water failed. At 0745 the SHINANO goes dead in the water. At 0850 HAMAKAZE and ISOKAZE take in tow, and building to 3 knots start to move toward Cape Ushio to beach her. However, the strain grows too great and the tow has to be abandoned. The list to starboard resumes and increases, and at 1018 Captain Abe gives the order to Abandon Ship. The YUKIKAZE comes alongside to starboard to remove the crew.

Sunk: At 1057 hours rolls over to starboard completely bottom up, then sinks by the stern in position 33-07'N, 137-04'E, taking down Captain Abe (by his choice), 1,435 officers and men, the 50 Ohka rocket bombs and 6 Shinyo suicide boats. Rescued are 55 officers, 993 petty officers and men, plus 32 civilians for a total of 1,080 survivors (including 3 of the Ohka pilots). In addition, the HAMAKAZE does recover the Imperial Portrait found floating on the sea.

I seem to remember the Shinano not being finished, aka no water tight doors where yet fitted.So you cant really blame it on poor damage control rather gross negligence.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

So if the japanese had won the battlefield Akagi and Hiryu could have been saved ?

Sounds like they were pretty finished to me...

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: LittleJoe

ORIGINAL: treespider

29 November 1944:
At 0309 near position bearing 198 degrees 108 miles from Omae-zaki lighthouse struck by four torpedoes in the starboard side fired by USS ARCHERFISH. At first the damage - though severe -- is judged manageable, and the carrier is able to maintain speed and course. However, progressive flooding through incomplete fittings spreads, and a heavy list to starboard develops. Captain Abe orders the three outboard port boiler rooms flooded to take some of the list off. At dawn SHINANO had steamed 36 miles from where torpedoed and was still making 11 knots, when boiler feed water failed. At 0745 the SHINANO goes dead in the water. At 0850 HAMAKAZE and ISOKAZE take in tow, and building to 3 knots start to move toward Cape Ushio to beach her. However, the strain grows too great and the tow has to be abandoned. The list to starboard resumes and increases, and at 1018 Captain Abe gives the order to Abandon Ship. The YUKIKAZE comes alongside to starboard to remove the crew.

Sunk: At 1057 hours rolls over to starboard completely bottom up, then sinks by the stern in position 33-07'N, 137-04'E, taking down Captain Abe (by his choice), 1,435 officers and men, the 50 Ohka rocket bombs and 6 Shinyo suicide boats. Rescued are 55 officers, 993 petty officers and men, plus 32 civilians for a total of 1,080 survivors (including 3 of the Ohka pilots). In addition, the HAMAKAZE does recover the Imperial Portrait found floating on the sea.

I seem to remember the Shinano not being finished, aka no water tight doors where yet fitted.So you cant really blame it on poor damage control rather gross negligence.

I'm not suggesting poor damage control, my only intent was to point out that a bunch of japanese CV's ended up sunk with a similar amount of damage inflicted as in the original post by castor.

[Belphegor]

Sorry Castortroy I think I will have to weigh in with the "you were just really really really really unlucky" crowd.

I had the CVL Ryuho take 3 torpedos, and numerous bomb hits and still survive a week at sea (getting up to 74 sys and 94 float) before reaching port and getting repairs (They were Expendable AAR).... sorry Bill, she's home.

[DuckofTindalos]

Plus there's more than one account of Japanese warships OTHER than carriers making it home with very heavy damage. Maybe the Japs were just really bad at handling avgas and bombs. Didn't the Taiho sink because her avgas lines were full of fuel vapours, which subsequently ignited?

[treespider]

Per your request

19 June 1944:
Battle of the Marianas. While launching part of `Raid I' against TF 58 in position 12-24'N, 137-20'E the TAIHO at 0810 is hit in the starboard side forward abreast No.1 elevator by one of six torpedoes fired by USS ALBACORE. The impact punches a hole in the hull which floods the forward elevator well and gives the TAIHO a 1.5 meter trim by the bow, but she maintains speed at 26 knots. The forward elevator, which was raised for launching operations is jarred loose and falls two meters, disrupting take-off operations and the torpedo hit cracks the av-gas tanks underneath it as well. As a result, free gasoline mixes with the water flooding the forward elevator well and av-gas vapor builds up in the space. Within a half-hour damage control has planked over the settled No.1 elevator and the remaining planes were launched. However, the gas vapor builds in the closed hanger and enclosed bow area and becomes serious. Efforts to free the mounting vapor by knocking holes in the ship's side or to ventilate the hangar are made. But at 1432 a tremendous induced explosion of gas vapor occurs forward, buckling the armored flight deck upward and blowing out the sides of the hangar deck. The precise force and cause of the explosion are somewhat ambiguous (see Note 2 for details:), but the shock of the blast ruptured the hull below the waterline, and all power failed. By 1500 the TAIHO is dead in the water, a blazing wreck shaken by explosions and Admiral Ozawa is compelled to transfer his flag. The WAKATSUKI comes alongside to starboad and sends a boat. However, the HAGURO moves up and Ozawa soon transfers to her from the destroyer in turn, hoisting his flag at 1606. In the meantime the TAIHO continues to burn furiously and starts to list slightly to port and settle slowly by the head. Oil leaking from the tanks and covering the sea catches on fire, adding to the inferno and peril. Realizing that she can't be saved, Captain Kikuchi orders all remaining personal evacuated.

Sunk: At 1628, still settling upright, leans over to port and dips by the bow, sinking "horizontally" and bodily below the waves on a nearly even keel in position 12-05'N, 138-12'E. Destroyers ISOKAZE, WAKATSUKI and HATSUZUKI rescue over 1,000 officers and men, including Captain Kikkuchi Tomozo; but about 1/3 of the complement - 28 officers and 632 petty officers and men - are lost.

[Hoplosternum]

I have had very badly damaged Japanese survive (and other big warships). But float damage can get out of control easily. You need either a bit of luck or be close to a port where you can disband any damaged ships. You cannot safely fight without being close to a decent base. Those size 3 ports will often not stop the flooding increase.

The Japanese can build plenty of ARs and they can add up to 4 extra size to the small ports in the Solomons, Gilberts and Marshalls. It's definitely worth rush building an extra dozen or so for forward repairs.

I think you have been unlucky but at the same time you took on a foe that could hurt you too far away from your bases seemingly. Most '42 encounters end badly for the US CVs. Their Torpedo planes have short range and can hardly hit anything. The dauntless range 4 500lbers won't even penetrate the deck of Kaga, Akagi, Shokaku or Zuikaku. Quite frankly the only saving grace for the US is that KB is brittle. I don't think with the Uber CAP the IJN needs any more advantages.

As Treespider has demonstrated the IJN CVs were fairly weak. There were many ships (not just CVs) sunk by bombs. Near misses and even hits often caused flood damage IRL. If you would be happier with losing ships to expanding fire damage rather than to flood that would probably be more accurate for most. But I can't see much difference myself. WitP seems to make flood the killer.

All my experience has been that hits deal wildly different amounts of damage. I nearly lost Yorktown to a single Torpedo - 50+ sys and 60+ flooding. Yet other 'penetrating' hits have done next to nothing. Some ships get hit and make a long voyage in the same state, while others remove vast flooding at sea in a few days or rapidly fill up and go down. It happens to allied ships to though not as often. If you are in danger of being hit make sure you are near to a decent base [X(]

[Nikademus]

One thing to keep in mind with progressive flooding is that it's process had to be "Fudged" to a degree in order to incorporate it within the rigid framework of 24 hour game turns. What that means is for the designer to incorporate 'progressive' flooding which if serious, usually will fall within the space of 24 hours, it had to be represented in game turns over a longer period to represent the fact that the flooding is progressive.

So dont consider the situation too literally. if a ship floods to the crippled point over a four turn "period" it can abstractly mean to represent a ship that is hit and suffers flooding over a shorter period in real life turns.

The alternate, (i.e. PacWar and earlier wargames) method is simply to assign a static damage/FLT % on the same turn which IMHO is not as realistic.

For what it's worth, i can relate to Caster's frustration. In my current game , i lost the BB Hyuga to progressive flooding after being badly damaged by two torpedoes. In "game" turns she took 8 turns to sink (translated "litterally" thats 8 days) but if one factors in the abstracted integration of progressive Flooding into the game a more reasonable translation of the events was that Hyuga, after being badly damaged by two torpedoes, struggled to get back to Rangoon harbor with attempts to curb the flooding damage ultimately proving unsuccessful (within a shorter real time period)

Was I unlucky? yes.....such a thing doesn't happen all the time. I was quite peeved because i actually GOT the ship into a large harbor (Rangoon) and disolved the TF figuring that with size 6, she'd survive. She didnt't I was quite pissed as Kaiser can attest [:D]

Fortunes of war in this case.

[Marc]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Per your request

19 June 1944:
Battle of the Marianas. While launching part of `Raid I' against TF 58 in position 12-24'N, 137-20'E the TAIHO at 0810 is hit in the starboard side forward abreast No.1 elevator by one of six torpedoes fired by USS ALBACORE. The impact punches a hole in the hull which floods the forward elevator well and gives the TAIHO a 1.5 meter trim by the bow, but she maintains speed at 26 knots. The forward elevator, which was raised for launching operations is jarred loose and falls two meters, disrupting take-off operations and the torpedo hit cracks the av-gas tanks underneath it as well. As a result, free gasoline mixes with the water flooding the forward elevator well and av-gas vapor builds up in the space. Within a half-hour damage control has planked over the settled No.1 elevator and the remaining planes were launched. However, the gas vapor builds in the closed hanger and enclosed bow area and becomes serious. Efforts to free the mounting vapor by knocking holes in the ship's side or to ventilate the hangar are made. But at 1432 a tremendous induced explosion of gas vapor occurs forward, buckling the armored flight deck upward and blowing out the sides of the hangar deck. The precise force and cause of the explosion are somewhat ambiguous (see Note 2 for details:), but the shock of the blast ruptured the hull below the waterline, and all power failed. By 1500 the TAIHO is dead in the water, a blazing wreck shaken by explosions and Admiral Ozawa is compelled to transfer his flag. The WAKATSUKI comes alongside to starboad and sends a boat. However, the HAGURO moves up and Ozawa soon transfers to her from the destroyer in turn, hoisting his flag at 1606. In the meantime the TAIHO continues to burn furiously and starts to list slightly to port and settle slowly by the head. Oil leaking from the tanks and covering the sea catches on fire, adding to the inferno and peril. Realizing that she can't be saved, Captain Kikuchi orders all remaining personal evacuated.

Sunk: At 1628, still settling upright, leans over to port and dips by the bow, sinking "horizontally" and bodily below the waves on a nearly even keel in position 12-05'N, 138-12'E. Destroyers ISOKAZE, WAKATSUKI and HATSUZUKI rescue over 1,000 officers and men, including Captain Kikkuchi Tomozo; but about 1/3 of the complement - 28 officers and 632 petty officers and men - are lost.

Paul S. Dull. The Imperial Japanese Navy:
"Taiho probably could have been saved, if not for two other factors: her unrefined fuel oil gave off dangerous fumes, and her crew showed poor judgement by maintaining 26 konts and keeping all shafts open to ventilate the ship."

In my opinion both circumstances because of the late stage of the war.

By the way Shokaku got 3 bombs in the battle of the Solomon Sea and four bombs in the battle of Santa Cruz and survived without being in danger of sinking.
In the battle of the Mariana Sea she got 4 torpedos and I think that is enough to sink.

The carriers Junyo, Hiyo, Zuiho, Shoho and Ryujo are all not full warships especially regarding their ability to sustain damage. That is very well known.

So I think yes the japanese damage control is worse than that of the USA but please don't expect the small carriers to be as good as the heavy ones.

The Lexington was also already saved and then blew up, wasn't she?

[Wolfpack_MatrixForum]

This Japanese disaster was completely due to my skill as a WITP player. Who here would be genius enough to lull your oppenent into exposing themselves by allowing 2 of my carriers to be sunk. [&o] I am shocked that no one has recognized this. [;)]

Now seriously I have one carrier of the three that was hit more seriously and the float damage has been increasing(not 20+ per turn though). It is not in danger of sinking as I am very close to port but if I was as far away as Castor I might have the same issue.

S! to Castor Troy. He has been keeping me on my toes and it has been a very enjoyable game so far. I took what I thought was a big risk by sending those three carriers into battle the next day and it paid off. Lucky me!

[castor troy]

At the end all I can say about this issue is that Paul did a good job in closing in with his carriers! [;)][&o]!

But if you see the hits that I´ve taken I think most people could or should understand me if I´m a bit concerned about the outcome when I was 6 x unlucky and all three carriers hit (with moderate damage) go done. Instead of losing this carriers in 43 I lost them in 6/42. The only positive thing for me at the moment is the fact that I didn´t sink his carriers, so he get´s three Essex´ less. [:D]

And this is the first time since started playing WITP that I lost 3 Jap CVs to 2 Allied CVs. For a year now I thought that this is impossible.

Paul I´ve just sent you a turn!

[treespider]

But if you see the hits that I´ve taken I think most people could or should understand me if I´m a bit concerned about the outcome when I was 6 x unlucky and all three carriers hit (with moderate damage) go done. Instead of losing this carriers in 43 I lost them in 6/42.

Sounds like you experienced your own Midway....

And this is the first time since started playing WITP that I lost 3 Jap CVs to 2 Allied CVs. For a year now I thought that this is impossible.

I imagine the Japanese did as well at the same point in the war...

[Ron Saueracker]

I, and many others, have always contested Japanese damage control as being a little too harsh on the IJN. Once again, aside from a very few examples such as Kongo, flooding was not the problem and the defining issue between Japanese and Allied damage control, the ability to control fire conflagarations was.

Why can't this be tweaked? Seems to me one just lowers the chance of progressive flooding and increases the chance of fire.

[Charbroiled]

Why not level the playing field....Allow an option for "Japan Damage Control" which would allow the Japanese the same damage control that the Allies enjoy. This would be an preference option to be toggled at the start of the game. If players want "historical" play, they would leave the toggle off.

[CapAndGown]

As Nick has pointed out above, and more extensively in the UV forum quite a while back, flooding and fire damage are abstracted over a several day period. Following a night action, for instance, IIRL you wouldn't see any fires by the time game control returned to you. They would have been put out by that time or the ship would have already been lost. The game just draws these things out over a longer period. Perhaps to allow for a more immersive effect. I don't know why GG did it that way. In the end, though, I think it works out fine.

From my experience, a Jap ship with less that 50 float damage can survive if it is close to a size 6 port. In many cases I have seen them bring down flooding even with out getting to port. Over 50, though, and things get really iffy. Even under 50 at sea or over 50 in a port, you can have some really nasty die rolls. A lot of it is just luck. I don't think it is out of line.

[Tom Hunter]

Charbroiled,

Giving the Japanese American damage control would be like giving them American planes. We can do it, and I suppose in theory they could have copied American planes and built them, but it just ain't right.

Castor it sounds like you got unlucky. In fear an loathing we hit Zuiho with 5 bombs including a critical in the ammo spaces, then two more bombs the next day, then another one 2 days later. As far as we know she is steaming to Hong kong for repairs. [:@]